First Killzone screenshot/details? So says USAToday..

I think they need to introduce an advance LoD system at least for the environment to shut up "critics". The character models are great in-game, reasonable for the cut scenes especially given that number of characters on screen is relatively high.
But the environment while pretty good for long view distance, looks flat and low poly locally (except destructibles).

Still not bad though, compared to competition.

Heh I dont think it will add much to the game's visuals. I mean...looking at the game in motion it looks so good already in its entirety. These are so insignificant that I think the addition of a "better lod system" or more normal mapped textures will be there only to reduce the critic's chances of finding any more excuses to complain about since they are ridiculously trying too hard.

I think the LOD system is working smoothly and efficiently. Usually games such as Gears or other games with a heavy LoD system, didnt always have a smooth transition in detail. In many cases the models and environments seem to pop their geometry detail too suddenly or delay it. In some other occasions you could notice the reduction of texture and geometry detail in objects as they moved farther. You almost felt that you could count their level of detail transitions.

In Killzone the transition seemed very constant and smooth from what I ve seen. I think that the flat surfaces or low poly objects in some environments are the final detailed models, in certain areas, you have to get too close to these surfaces to notice and not a problem of the LoD system.

I think that Guerilla took a reverse approach of their LoD which I think is a very smart trick. Instead of reducing brutally the level of detail on objects that are far, they balanced things by not overdoing it with the detail that is close to the player, so that the farther objects are getting they will maintain as much detail as possible to the original with as less LoD transitions as possible. The more objects are getting farther the less you notice things such as blurred textures and the more detailed they look.

Thats probably why medium and long distant objects look more detailed than close objects.

I think that the character models though maintain a high level of polygon detail even close.
 
I don't want to sound like a prick, but what exactly are people finding so amazing in this game? For example, the two games that have really wowed me so far are COD4 and LBP.

COD4 has shown several things that I've never seen before in any game:
- The grass/weed detail is unprecedented (aside from Crysis). Some games have tried putting so many strands on the screen, but they look ugly and repetitive. Tree detail is great too.
- The ubiquitous high quality shadowing. Even shadows really close to the viewpoint show no aliasing.
- The animation is ridiculously good. Sometimes you see animations similar to the best of today's games, but there are so many examples of long sequences with completely realistic motion and transition.

LBP is amazing for the physics, but not the physics calculations themselves. I've seen more complicated stuff on a 1GHz computer many years ago. It's the brilliant integration of that physics into gameplay. Completely unprecedented. Looks quite realistic too, though it should be noted that the 2D gameplay plane allows DoF to be implemented without consequence and eliminates all the challenges of shadow mapping.

What in Killzone 2 makes it look so good to you all? Aside from short mo-capped sequences, the animation is at the level we see from most decent games. Same for the physics (HL2-style pretermined breakable objects, 3DMark2001-esque destructable pillars, ragdoll from ages ago). The fire looks horrible. Local lighting/shadowing from muzzle flash was there in GoW, and the surfaces being lit weren't so uniformly flat or low-res, nor did the shadows alias so much.

Some of you are throwing around "game of show" accolades! Convince me!
 
I think it is the way your pov on the gun moves according to how you are walking down the stairs that this gif animation is supposed to highlight and that people are enthusiastic about. Could be wrong though - I don't play enough FPS games to know whether that is something special (though it certainly isn't in Resistance)
 
I think it is the way your pov on the gun moves according to how you are walking down the stairs that this gif animation is supposed to highlight and that people are enthusiastic about. Could be wrong though - I don't play enough FPS games to know whether that is something special (though it certainly isn't in Resistance)

The (useless) zoom by the player (developer?) is an attempt to highlight the attention to detail, in this case the animation of the gun in sync with the steps of the stairs.
 
I don't want to sound like a prick, but what exactly are people finding so amazing in this game? For example, the two games that have really wowed me so far are COD4 and LBP.

COD4 has shown several things that I've never seen before in any game:
- The grass/weed detail is unprecedented (aside from Crysis). Some games have tried putting so many strands on the screen, but they look ugly and repetitive. Tree detail is great too.
- The ubiquitous high quality shadowing. Even shadows really close to the viewpoint show no aliasing.
- The animation is ridiculously good. Sometimes you see animations similar to the best of today's games, but there are so many examples of long sequences with completely realistic motion and transition.

LBP is amazing for the physics, but not the physics calculations themselves. I've seen more complicated stuff on a 1GHz computer many years ago. It's the brilliant integration of that physics into gameplay. Completely unprecedented. Looks quite realistic too, though it should be noted that the 2D gameplay plane allows DoF to be implemented without consequence and eliminates all the challenges of shadow mapping.

What in Killzone 2 makes it look so good to you all? Aside from short mo-capped sequences, the animation is at the level we see from most decent games. Same for the physics (HL2-style pretermined breakable objects, 3DMark2001-esque destructable pillars, ragdoll from ages ago). The fire looks horrible. Local lighting/shadowing from muzzle flash was there in GoW, and the surfaces being lit weren't so uniformly flat or low-res, nor did the shadows alias so much.

Some of you are throwing around "game of show" accolades! Convince me!
It is not hard to mention tons of visual "flaws" in COD4 either and make it sound like another unimpressive game or less impressive than Killzone. No matter how many flaws you or I might point out I think it is pointless to attack games like that. Nobody will agree and there are things you mentioned about Killzone that people will disagree with intensively and I believe rightfully. But it wont result in an agreement I am sure no matter how long a discussion of such nature will take. None of the 2 sides will agree no matter who is right
 
I don't want to sound like a prick, but what exactly are people finding so amazing in this game? For example, the two games that have really wowed me so far are COD4 and LBP.

COD4 has shown several things that I've never seen before in any game:
- The grass/weed detail is unprecedented (aside from Crysis). Some games have tried putting so many strands on the screen, but they look ugly and repetitive. Tree detail is great too.
- The ubiquitous high quality shadowing. Even shadows really close to the viewpoint show no aliasing.
- The animation is ridiculously good. Sometimes you see animations similar to the best of today's games, but there are so many examples of long sequences with completely realistic motion and transition.

LBP is amazing for the physics, but not the physics calculations themselves. I've seen more complicated stuff on a 1GHz computer many years ago. It's the brilliant integration of that physics into gameplay. Completely unprecedented. Looks quite realistic too, though it should be noted that the 2D gameplay plane allows DoF to be implemented without consequence and eliminates all the challenges of shadow mapping.

What in Killzone 2 makes it look so good to you all? Aside from short mo-capped sequences, the animation is at the level we see from most decent games. Same for the physics (HL2-style pretermined breakable objects, 3DMark2001-esque destructable pillars, ragdoll from ages ago). The fire looks horrible. Local lighting/shadowing from muzzle flash was there in GoW, and the surfaces being lit weren't so uniformly flat or low-res, nor did the shadows alias so much.

Some of you are throwing around "game of show" accolades! Convince me!

I don't understand how anyone could not be impressed with KZ. Seriously. People could go into detailed analysis of why it looks so good, but why bother .. will it convert you? will it impress you? If for some reason you are not impressed with the video, how are words going to convince you ...

You list 3 things that impress you about COD4.

1. Grass/weed detail ... yet the city sections look to clean, sparse and squarish.
2. Hight quality shadowing ?
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/4811/blurr2vb6.jpg
3. Animation. KZ has great animation as well.

Both COD4 and KZ2 look gorgeous. It can be argued which is overall better looking, but to have to ask what about KZ people find good looking is absurd.
 
COD4 has shown several things that I've never seen before in any game:
- The grass/weed detail is unprecedented (aside from Crysis). Some games have tried putting so many strands on the screen, but they look ugly and repetitive. Tree detail is great too.
Though offtopic, I thought the grass in Crysis and COD4 are very different things. In COD4 it looks like some image-based tricks and precomputed tree shadows while in Crysis they are real 3D objects. In COD3 the grass animated at least but in COD4 nothing happens.
 
What am I missing?

It's not even zoomed. We have a slightly green filter over the background, and is occasionally blurred like the rest of the gun. Surely you're not impressed by that!

as other have mentioned, the thing you missed about that gif is that the gun's movement is in sync with the player movement and compared this to COD4 which i've seen all of the video (which is very impressive) i have to say that when the player move it like he is sliding which is unrealistic IMO.

edit -

check the blood on that Helghast, the most realistic blood ever.

kZ201a.jpg
 
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the first few times i saw KZ, i was amazed. but the more i watch the trailer, the less i'm impressed. some parts look great while others look less impressive (still good though). i do still think it looks very good and i love the art direction and lighting, but some of the CoD4 videos are starting to impress me more. i think KZ has the potential to surpass CoD4 visually though; theres more time for improvement and it already looks very good.

anyway, how did CoD4 get dragged into this thread anyway? can't we just discuss the KZ trailer/gameplay videos? i personally think it looks great.
 
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It is not hard to mention tons of visual "flaws" in COD4 either and make it sound like another unimpressive game or less impressive than Killzone.
I'm not talking about flaws, I'm talking about things that we've never seen before. I'm not really condemning KZ's physics/animation/shadows/whatever, even though it may have looked like it. I'm just pointing out that they're nothing new and no better than what we've already seen. I want to know what in particular is blowing everyone away.

You list 3 things that impress you about COD4.

1. Grass/weed detail ... yet the city sections look to clean, sparse and squarish.
2. Hight quality shadowing ?
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/4811/blurr2vb6.jpg
3. Animation. KZ has great animation as well.
1. That's still doesn't take away from the fact that the detail in the field is unprecedented.
2. Given how close the wall is and how far the trees are casting those shadows, yeah, that's really good for a worst case. You're right, though, I shouldn't have listed this, as it's not in a different league from games before it.
3. I haven't seen anything good aside from short mo-capped sequences (~1 second, e.g. jumping over a rail), which is nothing new. You still have unnatural movements when transitioning between animations. It's on par with the better games of today, but that's it.

A whole trip across a field looks amazing in COD4. No game ever released has people running so realistically during gameplay. COD4 isn't perfect, though, and you don't get that quality of movement all the time, but when I do see it, I'm really impressed.

I don't understand how anyone could not be impressed with KZ. Seriously. People could go into detailed analysis of why it looks so good, but why bother .. will it convert you? will it impress you? If for some reason you are not impressed with the video, how are words going to convince you ...
Tell me what looks so amazing. Give me any specific examples. I haven't seen anything in the gameplay videos that I haven't seen before. Is this whole reaction just due to the lack of anything else on PS3?

It's the "easily best looking FPS on a console ever" comments that are so bizarre to me. Surely there must be something about KZ2 that you or someone else can point out to me that is "easily the best-looking ever", even if assessing the overall look is too subjective. Destructable pillars is sort of neat, I guess, but it's just a canned effect that's too narrow in scope.

(By "canned effect" I don't mean scripted, but an effect predetermined to be limited to a few types of objects scattered here and there. HL2 is similar.)
 
as other have mentioned, the thing you missed about that gif is that the gun's movement is in sync with the player movement and compared this to COD4 which i've seen all of the video (which is very impressive) i have to say that when the player move it like he is sliding which is unrealistic IMO.
There are plenty of games that move the weapon around while walking/running. I don't see what's so much more realistic about KZ2's approach. If I want to take a glass full of water up or down the stairs without spilling it's not particularly hard. Similarly, a soldier trained to keep his arm steady wouldn't be moving his weapon around much either, especially when specifically holding the weapon in a high accuracy position.

check the blood on that Helghast, the most realistic blood ever.
So it's the gore people love? That's more of an art decision than anything else. Hell, in the US most TV stations (even many on cable) seem to chop out any sight of airborne blood when they play movies.

BTW everyone, I mentioned COD4 (and LBP too!) just to give examples of the specifics I'm looking for, i.e. examples of a game breaking into new territory, whether visually or otherwise.
 
COD4 has shown several things that I've never seen before in any game:
- The grass/weed detail is unprecedented (aside from Crysis). Some games have tried putting so many strands on the screen, but they look ugly and repetitive. Tree detail is great too.
- The ubiquitous high quality shadowing. Even shadows really close to the viewpoint show no aliasing.
- The animation is ridiculously good. Sometimes you see animations similar to the best of today's games, but there are so many examples of long sequences with completely realistic motion and transition.
i believe in everyone one of those 3 points, drakes fortune surparses cod4 (not to sure about the shadowing though)

bugger the bad shadowing in cod4 theres a more important graphical bug in the following
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/4811/blurr2vb6.jpg
easily solved though
 
you're wasting your time Mint, i already went through this to no avail. Infact just after i posed the same questions the thread went off into the wonderous gun sway that seems to fascinate some here far more then the overall package of any other PS3 game shown. Certainly kept this thread at the top and expanding fast. Many other PS3 titles DO deserve more attention and a few of which will actually be released soon unlike this pre pre pre alpha (so many friggan "pre's" the development of KZ2 has actually started to go backwards!) 2008 title.

In my opinion the reaction is either out of pure desperation, having the best for your console if you will, something the other guy doesnt have so people are blowing things WAY out of proportion to fabricate that. In short, fanboy hype. Or a lot more people then i thought have been asleep for the last 4 years and totally missed the progression of FPS; in which case then i can understand the "HOLY SHIT THIS IS HUGE" reaction.

If anyone feels attacked by my words, my apologies, but this thread has absolutly been filled with an overaction. The Darkness had a trailing gunsmoke effect which looked neat but i didnt see people turn it into a discussion of how cool and absolutly amazing it was, or the game because of it, for 5 pages like what people did here with character movement. Both effects, i add, being things you'll notice for the first 10-15minutes of play then quickly forget they exist.
 
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i don't think either game has a clear advantage over the other overall, and all you guys are doing is arguing opinions. i can see how people would prefer one over the other. and again, i don't know how CoD4 got dragged into this thread. first people were comparing it to the CG trailer, and now people are comparing it to CoD4? :???:
for what it is, i think the KZ trailer looked great, especially considering its in an early stage.
 
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There are plenty of games that move the weapon around while walking/running. I don't see what's so much more realistic about KZ2's approach. If I want to take a glass full of water up or down the stairs without spilling it's not particularly hard. Similarly, a soldier trained to keep his arm steady wouldn't be moving his weapon around much either, especially when specifically holding the weapon in a high accuracy position.

That is one of the reasons I hate this "natural motion" thing with all the head bobbing. I played paintball relatively competitively for awhile (local tournaments and such) and one of the key skills in it was being able to shoot accurately while on the move. I know a dozen people who played maybe 8 hours a week who could hold their marker better than these people in Killzone... I don't know, it just doesn't strike me as something that looks particularly good.
 
Paintball was the other thing I was thinking of. Sure, real guns are heavier, but that actually makes it more steady. When soldiers and paintballers have the gun in aiming position, they move their legs in a way that minimizes upper body motion. I even know a floorball player (floorball is like street hockey) that runs like that, allowing him to have excellent ball control.

Maybe an FPS will one day have a "lower weapon" button that lets you move faster, and there you could have the arms swinging or whatever. However, if a game did that then the weapon should be out of the field of view unless you adopted a GoW third person approach. Incidentally, there's plenty of arm/gun motion in that game when you're moving around and not shooting.
 
i don't think either game has a clear advantage over the other overall, and all you guys are doing is arguing opinions. i can see how people would prefer one over the other. and again, i don't know how CoD4 got dragged into this thread. first people were comparing it to the CG trailer, and now people are comparing it to CoD4? :???:
I never really meant for it to. It had the clearest example of what I was talking about. I think the LBP analogy alone would have been lost among most people, and they'd say I'm comparing different genres. I'm not trying to initiate any comparing at all between the two. I just want people to point out some unique strengths in KZ2 that would justify the "best FPS ever" praise.

Gore and destructable pillars are pretty weak arguments. Widespread destructable elements would be something else, though.
for what it is, i think the KZ trailer looked great, especially considering its in an early stage.
I think it looked good too. It just didn't knock my socks off, nor strike me as standing out from the crowd in any way.
 
Lower your weapons

Maybe an FPS will one day have a "lower weapon" button that lets you move faster
While running in Killzone1 the character lowered whatever weapon he used + they added a very nice motionblur effect for its time.

I said it was the best looking console FPS ever - but please show me wrong.
 
Gore and destructable pillars are pretty weak arguments. Widespread destructable elements would be something else, though.

Then why exactly did you use graphical detail in CoD4 as a way of countering Killzone's hype if your argument is based purely on FPS originality? Last I checked, the gradually better implementation of shadowing and greenery are a natural evolution for all games that don't directly affect the game as a member of the FPS genre.

First you imply that the "overreaction" is unwarranted due to unoriginal gameplay, then you move into the graphical territory of another FPS for the sake of offering a better example of the genre. Please emphasize which area you're trying to critique, because you're kinda all over the place.
 
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