Xbox Live Indie Games... definitive thread

[Sc4freak]

I'm the developer of NextWar: The Quest for Earth (Trailer). It's a tower defence game, with an art style similar to Geometry Wars. Check it out if you want. :smile:

There's a lot of discussion going on in the XNA forums about what can be done to either improve the general quality of games (or "games") on XBLCG or make it more appealing to users.

In particular, there have been more than a few requests for allowing achievements in community games. The ZMan, an MVP, said this:

George talked to several of the Xbox MVPs at the MVP summit this year - most of them had heard about community games but none of them had bought any becuase "They don't have achievements". They were quite clear on this - they ONLY play games where they can increase their gamer score.

There seems to be general agreement that the inclusion of achievements would get a lot more people interested in community games. Personally, I don't see why so many people attach so much importance to gamerpoints.

Either way, I really don't like the idea of achievements in community games - I foresee a flood of applications whose sole purpose is to dole out gamerpoints. And the current review process doesn't have any power to filter out such games.

 

[RobertR1]

The problem for XNA is Xbox Live arcade. XBLA is already an established part of Xbox Live and the 360. It's the place you go for smaller games.

More importantly the quality of XBLA games can be very high and easily blow away any of the XNA stuff. So as a consumer, why would I spend money and time on XNA games when I can spend that money on an XBLA game which will be much higher quality.

If you're going to develop games in hopes of making a living, stick to XBLA.

 

[BadTB25]

Community games need to be competitively priced as well.

If we accept that the quality will be less than XBLA games, then the price needs to reflect this as well.

This is not to insult some of the CG out there. Some of them are very impressive and do surpass some of the XBLA offerings. Dishwasher was originally a CG game if I recall correctly.

There should be maybe a pricing differential where sub $5.00 games are CG and anything above is XBLA.

My impression of CG was always that it was an avenue for budding developers to build up a resume towards a professional developer career.

I haven't played around with XNA, so I could be way off base.

 

[Deepblue]

I think User Ratings would go a long way to help sales on XBLCG. Most people's first impressions come from the boxart (which is usually pretty bad), and then maybe the game info page. That's not exactly the best way to go about finding the cream of the crop. It would also help if MS actually advertised the CG section of the marketplace. It would also be nice if enthusiast sites could actually look at these game and provide quick reviews.

 

[MrFloopy]

The problem for XNA is Xbox Live arcade. XBLA is already an established part of Xbox Live and the 360. It's the place you go for smaller games.

Don't confuse XNA with Community Games. XNA is a set of development tools.

 

[makattack]

The problem for XNA is Xbox Live arcade. XBLA is already an established part of Xbox Live and the 360. It's the place you go for smaller games.

More importantly the quality of XBLA games can be very high and easily blow away any of the XNA stuff. So as a consumer, why would I spend money and time on XNA games when I can spend that money on an XBLA game which will be much higher quality.

If you're going to develop games in hopes of making a living, stick to XBLA.

I'm not sure I agree. XNA represents a low-cost of entry for a developer. XBL is a high-end service with a high-cost of entry -- you need a XB Dev kit. With XNA, my $100 laptop with free XNA Studio and Visual C# Express edition is a dev kit. Heck, you don't even need the 360, until you want to deploy.

I am somewhat surprised that some seriously big name developers are developing for XNA -- but I guess they're still more like one-man shops. There are also small teams of startup developers, who form small studio/dev shops for XNA projects. It's certainly an entry point for them. Perhaps, if they see some success, they'll invest in a 360DevKit.

I think it may be some developers get too optimistic for earnings via XNACG, esp. as sole income.

Still, it's somewhat disheartening to hear that some offerings -- not even games, have a high conversion rate:

http://www.joystiq.com/2009/04/01/the-brighter-side-of-xna-sales/

A screen saver/white noise generator... really?

 

[Sc4freak]

I'm not sure I agree. XNA represents a low-cost of entry for a developer. XBL is a high-end service with a high-cost of entry -- you need a XB Dev kit. With XNA, my $100 laptop with free XNA Studio and Visual C# Express edition is a dev kit. Heck, you don't even need the 360, until you want to deploy.

I am somewhat surprised that some seriously big name developers are developing for XNA -- but I guess they're still more like one-man shops. There are also small teams of startup developers, who form small studio/dev shops for XNA projects. It's certainly an entry point for them. Perhaps, if they see some success, they'll invest in a 360DevKit.

Not likely. I don't know how much a devkit costs, but I've heard that it's in the range of $10000+. I'd be surprised if more than a handful of XBLCG games ever reach that kind of money.

 

[BadTB25]

I was checking out a few of the CG titles last night, but forgot the name of your title.

I will check it out tonight.

I thought the trailer was pretty cool, but why go with the tron-like graphics?

 

[AlNom]

I thought the trailer was pretty cool, but why go with the tron-like graphics?

"real" art takes time?

 

[Sc4freak]

Because I'm a programmer, not an artist.

I chose that art style because it was simple, doesn't look too bad, and hides the fact that it's all programmer art. I think this shows that not all programmer art has to be "horrenous". In NextWar's case it's merely "bad".

 

[NRP]

Your game looks interesting. I'll check it out this weekend. Does it have a steep learning curve?

 

[Acert93]

I think more CG devs need to self promote. Do a blog through development, do a free strategy guide, post on forum soliciting feedback (Hey guys, I just released my first XBLCG game. I am looking for feedback in regards to the game, what you like, what you think could be better, what you want to see next, etc. blah blah blah here is my promo video, etc... btw, if you want to chat about my game etc... hit me up on XBL and we can chat about my game while we play etc).

CG has to compete against XBLA as well as most PCs have a huge array of qualityflash games out there. Not to mention you can get retail bargain bin games for under $15 now.

That said those who are doing it for fun, building a portfolio... or in hopes of hitting a home run it is great. Think of how many BILLIONS of flash games are out there... very few are worth their time. A community ranking would be very cool and an easier way to refer friends to games.

I am gonna give the TD game a whirl. There are a billion of those online, and a few really, really good ones. TD games rock, but they either have to be really unique or really shine in terms of balance and design/fun to merit a purchase in general. Tough genre, but your promo video was excellent. Now start a thread, chat up your game, and solicit feedback, positive and negative

 

[BadTB25]

Downloaded it tonight, but haven't had a chance to play it. It's only 200 points, so I may be apt to buy it If I like it.

I look at CG as more a hobbyist venture. Low cost of entry that can help you build a portfolio. When I get a little more experience with programming, I may try my hand in XNA just to see what I can come up with.

I tried Solar last night...very interesting, but I got confused fairly quickly.

 

[Deepblue]

What exactly confused you? The core game is very simple.

 

[BadTB25]

I guess it was the point of it all.

After within 5 minutes, I encountered a Sun (I think) with multiple objects in orbit. I'm I supposed to absorb the sun, knock it planets out of orbit, look for other planets to absorb?

It was kind of hard to figure out in the timed demo. I may give it another go, but I had limited time when I tried it out.

 

[AzBat]

The point of Solar is not the sandbox mode because after awhile the gameplay keeps repeating. Where it shines are the challenges. If you complete them under the master time it will slowly unlock special modes. I finished all 15 challenges, but only 1 or 2 beat the master time so I wasn't able to unlock all the special modes. Also, in trial mode the life planets will not spawn little spaceships. This is suppose to be fixed in the next update. BTW, spaceships not spawned from your own planets will attack your planets & sun. When you get spaceships of your own they will destroy asteroids, other spaceships & planets.

Tommy McClain

 

[Deepblue]

And if you suck a life planet into the sun, any spaceships it produced will turn hostile.

I guess it was the point of it all.

After within 5 minutes, I encountered a Sun (I think) with multiple objects in orbit. I'm I supposed to absorb the sun, knock it planets out of orbit, look for other planets to absorb?

It was kind of hard to figure out in the timed demo. I may give it another go, but I had limited time when I tried it out.

You need to start by finding planetoids to hook into your orbit. You can then increase the mass of these planetoids by getting asteroids to orbit as moons, then sucking them in to the planetoids. Increase the mass of the planet enough, and you'll have a life planet which starts producing ships to combat hostile entities. To increase the mass of your sun, simply absorb the planets. Do it enough, and you'll become a black hole.

 

[BadTB25]

Yeah got it to play on sandbox with no time limit today for some reason.

I got all the way to creating a black hole, but nothing happened after that.

Overall it was enjoyable and I may purchase it to see what the challenges are about.

I didn't realize that my ships would turn on me if I absorbed the planet that created them. The first time it happened, I was like WTH. It took a while to figure out the I just sucked in their home planet.

I also tried the Next War TD game.
I thought it was pretty cool, although the small taste you got before the time limit expired was a little to brief.

Another one I will probably purchase....I need to find some point cards for cheap.

 

[AzBat]

I'm the developer of NextWar: The Quest for Earth (Trailer). It's a tower defence game, with an art style similar to Geometry Wars. Check it out if you want. :smile:

Pretty good game. I had to run the free trial twice before I got to actually play. I wanted to make sure I understood how it worked. After the 2nd trial, I decided to see how much it cost because I was right in the middle of wave & didn't want to loose what I had done. When I saw it was 200 MS Points I bought it. Again, nice game & good luck!

BTW, I DO NOT BUY 800 MS POINT COMMUNITY GAMES. And I doubt I'm the only one to think that way. If I want to spend that I'll buy a Live Arcade game instead.

Here's the list of games I've bought off Community Games so far...

Miner Dig Deep
Solar
NextWar: The Quest for Earth
Johnny Platform's Biscuit Romp
SuperCow
Dr. Popper
Bowling X

That's $20 worth of Community Games.

Those last three were bought for the wife. I almost didn't let her have SuperCow because it was 400 points, but after looking online I seen it for the PC from $8-$15. Plus, it was really one of the most well polished games I've seen on the service. I believe it exceeds some Live Arcade games. I doubt very seriously I will buy any more 400 point games. I think 200 points are the most I feel that the majority of the Community Games are worth. Anymore and I think they should be as good or better than Live Arcade games.

I also think Microsoft needs to rethink about adding a free and 100 point level. I couldn't believe when Microsoft first announced that there would be no completely free games. Some of the games that were shown a year ago as a taste still haven't been released because of that. I think their worry was that these games would require a lot of money for upkeep and they needed a cut of the profits in order to pay for it. However, most of the game sales barely made enough to warrant sending the creators a check for the whole quarter!

Tommy McClain

 

[zed]

Considering the size of XBLive!, those numbers are tragic. You can afford at best about $4k to make a game and recover your costs. Suddenly the service is not looking at all appealing. I'd love to compare this to a table for iPhone apps. And of course, the more people that create stuff, the harder it's going to be to make sales.

you want hard data on iphone apps?
the guy who made this (a kiwi)
http://au.wireless.ign.com/articles/913/913386p1.html
was interviewed in the newspaper the other day

he was making US $~50,000 a day at the start, even now ~8months later hes still pulling in ~$500 a day, though he didnt mention the total amount, he did say hes brought a house mortgage free, so I assume he made at least half a million