The GT5 expectation thread (including preview titles)*
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Here's a wireframe model of a car from GT4 on PS2
And here's a wireframe model of a car from GT-HD on PS3
Diminishing returns.
Not really imo. You gotta see it in motion to see the difference in the cars, most detailed cars I've ever seen in a racing game. Screenshots and low res video dont do it justice.
mckmas8808
Legend
I was guessing that he was joking. Anybody can see that it's not diminishing returns just by reading this thread.
And why does everybody think that the GTHD cars ingame look worst than the replay shots? It's all in the angles.
Wait, I thought it was diminishing returns?
Guess I will have to use a case by case basis.
mckmas8808
Legend
Well people seemed to be pretty set on diminishing returns on other threads, but not this one I guess.
I really dont see how it's deminishing returns. You play the PS1/PS2/PS3 versions at their respectable resolutions. And it's easy to see the huge jumps in graphics. I'd say the jump from GT2 to GT3 is just a big of a jump as GT4 to GTHD Concept. And that jump will grow even wider in GT5. Maybe not the environments currently imo (we will have to see how the GT5 environments differ from GTHD), but definately the cars and lighting. Thats not even counting when you put that extra detail to use, such as the cockpit camera view. Something GT4 never had pretty much due to the amount of detail.
It's definitely diminishing returns at least as far as the ingame behind the car view is concerned. If you look at the ingame shots of GT1 from behind the car vs GT4, you see a huge difference. Now compare GT4 at 1080i vs GTHD using the same behind car view and you see less of a difference.
I have noticed the same in general. MANY game angles don't allow users to see the big strides in quality beacuse you are stick looking... at a bum! This is why the PGR3 cockpit view was such a big deal to me, and why I am uber happy GT5 is including a cabin view as well.
For "chase" cams, what I want to see is a "rodie" rough camera. In the FM2 CGI they have a trailing chase cam which is affected by the bumpiness of the road, inertia, etc and between this and the particles you get a GREAT feel for the road as well as for the detail of the vehicle as it is constantly moving slightly up/down/left/right as well as pitching slightly. Add in the camera doing the same, ever subtly, the effect is the detail of the car and world come much more into view than a very confined tail cam.
One of the biggest hurdles for game design is presentation. Thinking back many great games really excelled here. e.g. Resident Evil was a break from the mold that allowed very detailed worlds for the limitations of the hardware. Gears of War is another title that changed camera angles for both gameplay and graphical reasons.
But yeah, the chase camera vs. replay angles shows a large disparity. Not due to quality, but due to not every angle is as photogenic. Chase cams are like zooming in on, and being stuck viewing, a super model... feet
Kinda depends on the car actually in the 'behind the car' camera view. The g35 for example, not much detail in the back, but the lotus, or the lancer is so detailed in the back theres a huge difference in modeling quality. GT4 isnt even real 1080i IIRC. And as good as the lighting was for GT4 (some of the best on PS2 imo), It wasnt as dynamic, there were no was no self shadowing, etc. Playing the PS1 versions, PS2 versions, and PS3 versions on my HDTV @ their native resolutions there is a huge difference between them. Maybes it's just me, but I don't see any diminishing returns.
Camera angles definately play a part in the view of things. But when you have the in-game graphics of one game look way better than the photomode graphics of another game...I dont see anything diminishing.
While I agree with the notion that we are approaching a diminishing returns in static visuals, it doesn't make GTHD any less impressive. I also think there are still new domains and a great many things PD (or any other devs) can do in the graphics department.
As someone mentioned above, a great LOD system would be critical for showing multiple, highly detailed car models. Actually, anything that enables PD to maintain the current quality in the final game is a huge leap compared to current/last gen games (Who cares about diminishing returns then ?)
As for other improvements not found in this demo...
Animation (crowd, car) can be further improved for any racing sim. The spectators should run away when I crash into the fences (I actually experienced this first hand on the passenger seat... and people in the bus stop, and almost the entire side of road, were scrambling for their lives becaue they didn't know how far the driver will take the car to).
A nextgen environmental effects system like the F1 wet screen effect, but do it for a storm. It will remind me of my scariest driving experiences 20 years ago in a (rain or snow) storm. The driving physics will change too. It felt like driving a boat blind with frigging truckers still going at 70mphs from behind. Ha ha... may be for the next MotorStorm.
The cracked glass effect in Resistance can make a come back here but in general I think damage model is overplayed. If that's what people want, then maybe... *shrug*
As someone mentioned above, a great LOD system would be critical for showing multiple, highly detailed car models. Actually, anything that enables PD to maintain the current quality in the final game is a huge leap compared to current/last gen games (Who cares about diminishing returns then ?)
As for other improvements not found in this demo...
Animation (crowd, car) can be further improved for any racing sim. The spectators should run away when I crash into the fences (I actually experienced this first hand on the passenger seat... and people in the bus stop, and almost the entire side of road, were scrambling for their lives becaue they didn't know how far the driver will take the car to).
A nextgen environmental effects system like the F1 wet screen effect, but do it for a storm. It will remind me of my scariest driving experiences 20 years ago in a (rain or snow) storm. The driving physics will change too. It felt like driving a boat blind with frigging truckers still going at 70mphs from behind. Ha ha... may be for the next MotorStorm.
The cracked glass effect in Resistance can make a come back here but in general I think damage model is overplayed. If that's what people want, then maybe... *shrug*
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mckmas8808
Legend
Seriously guys I really can't see the dimishing returns. :smile:
Seriously guys I really can't see the dimishing returns. :smile:
First and fourth shot are GT HD right ?
While select camera angles are indeed fabulous and near photorealistic (hear that Dan? this is what near photorealism is like...) when you are playing the entire illusion is destroyed because the cherry picked angles are no longer present, which means exposing a lot of non-photorealistic qualities still persistant in games, as well as the fact that the game angles are... boring, unimaginative, and definately are dinimishing in regards to visual returns.
And that may be the biggest problem this gen: Getting the most bang-for-buck from the GAMEPLAY camera. e.g. the below shots wouldn't make someone ask "is that real"?
Some good ingame screens from ruliweb.
As long as game angles keep showing us the same bland angles that show significant eye sores we will contininue hearing things like diminishing returns. And I think this is important because I don't care much for replays--I want the gaming experience to look like those photos
That said GT is on a good trend and yet again PROVES that with good artists the current consoles have what it takes to make some jaw dropping graphics (sometimes the crap on the 360 and PS3 make me SERISOUSLY wonder!). Love what I see. Although it reminds me of a couple games that have already gotten good enough in replay angles (e.g. NBA 2K) that make you double take when a decent distance from the screen.
Love_In_Rio
Veteran
While select camera angles are indeed fabulous and near photorealistic (hear that Dan? this is what near photorealism is like...) when you are playing the entire illusion is destroyed because the cherry picked angles are no longer present, which means exposing a lot of non-photorealistic qualities still persistant in games, as well as the fact that the game angles are... boring, unimaginative, and definately are dinimishing in regards to visual returns.
And that may be the biggest problem this gen: Getting the most bang-for-buck from the GAMEPLAY camera. e.g. the below shots wouldn't make someone ask "is that real"?
As long as game angles keep showing us the same bland angles that show significant eye sores we will contininue hearing things like diminishing returns. And I think this is important because I don't care much for replays--I want the gaming experience to look like those photos
That said GT is on a good trend and yet again PROVES that with good artists the current consoles have what it takes to make some jaw dropping graphics (sometimes the crap on the 360 and PS3 make me SERISOUSLY wonder!). Love what I see. Although it reminds me of a couple games that have already gotten good enough in replay angles (e.g. NBA 2K) that make you double take when a decent distance from the screen.
QFT.
I would even say that looking at those gaming pics Forza´s 2 back of the cars are on pair if not better. You must take into account that the PGR3 garage cars are also fotorealistic and people forgot that suddenly once the gaming ones didn´t match them.
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While select camera angles are indeed fabulous and near photorealistic (hear that Dan? this is what near photorealism is like...) when you are playing the entire illusion is destroyed because the cherry picked angles are no longer present, which means exposing a lot of non-photorealistic qualities still persistant in games, as well as the fact that the game angles are... boring, unimaginative, and definately are dinimishing in regards to visual returns.
And that may be the biggest problem this gen: Getting the most bang-for-buck from the GAMEPLAY camera. e.g. the below shots wouldn't make someone ask "is that real"?
As long as game angles keep showing us the same bland angles that show significant eye sores we will contininue hearing things like diminishing returns. And I think this is important because I don't care much for replays--I want the gaming experience to look like those photos
That said GT is on a good trend and yet again PROVES that with good artists the current consoles have what it takes to make some jaw dropping graphics (sometimes the crap on the 360 and PS3 make me SERISOUSLY wonder!). Love what I see. Although it reminds me of a couple games that have already gotten good enough in replay angles (e.g. NBA 2K) that make you double take when a decent distance from the screen.
This is pretty much the reason for my negativity in my review (and later argument) regarding this demo and is the reason I may have been left fairly unimpressed.
You summed things up nicely.
As long as game angles keep showing us the same bland angles that show significant eye sores we will contininue hearing things like diminishing returns. And I think this is important because I don't care much for replays--I want the gaming experience to look like those photos
The thing with those static 'behind the car' camera angle pictures posted on the forums is that you wont get a feel for the lighting. Which is hugely important imo. The dynamic lighting really sets it apart from what you might see in GT4. So seeing it in motion is definately key. The self shadowing for example in motion helps you see where those extra polys have been put to work when the car drifts around a corner or goes through a tunnel and the sun is shining on the car from a different angle. Things you notice that you wont see in regular screen shots. I'm not saying camera angles dont matter, because they do. It's just that theres a lot of factors when considering diminishing returns. And you wont get half of those factors from regular screenshots.
Look at this for example.
Not exactly a huge jump between them, from this sample they could be 2 different racing games on one system with the same cars and a similar environment just one not as good looking. But you see them in motion, at their respected resolutions and you will see a huge jump between them. Especially in the lighting, car detail, and texture work.
Now getting back to the camera angles. The extra detail/polygons can have very positive effect on gameplay and graphics you couldnt have before. The in-car camera view for example:
All those polygons you dont get in GT4 will be used in other places not seen before. Diminishing Returns? I just can't agree with that.
Love_In_Rio
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