Sony's NeoGeo Pocket's (PSP2/Vita) business/non technical ramifications talk

[manux]

oh, it was encoding not decoding... I wonder what the format is for n8 encoded 720p video

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Decoding is a lot easier than encoding. I can watch HD movies fine on my laptop, but it takes an age to encode one.

 

[Rurouni]

Doubtful but not impossible.

Just to put things into perspective even Brazos and Atom are unable to encode x264 in realtime. For 720p a 1.6 ghz Brazos E-350 system can only encode at 14.1 fps. Atom D510 at 1.66 ghz is even lower at 13.3 fps. (courtesy of Anandtech)

I'm not sure there's any ARM systems out there that do x264 encoding.

For such low power devices at most you may get hardware decode assistence. It's assumed that video will be encoded on far more capable systems.

Regards,
SB

I think it can... don't know about processor utilization though. But the fact is most high end smartphone can record at 720p and some can do 1080p (don't know about the codec though). It definitely got hardware assisted encoding. Of course the quality and/or bitrate isn't the best.

 

[patsu]

There are H.264/MP4 profiles for cellphones, different from the profiles used to encode movies.

I wonder how low level PS Suite goes. Can a third party introduce remote video playback (e.g., via a dock) and have it work on all PS Suite devices ?

 

[manux]

I think Sony strategy seems to be spot on this time for handheld gaming/market. Do the ps suite thing on android(and NGP) to cater for casuals and get market share and idea. Offer NGP for higher end experience with possibility to casual gaming and all this in HW that most likely stays valid for 5 years+.

From my POV sony added the major features to HW that made psp1 suck (i.e. added touch screen with higher resolution and possibility to have proper text input and web browsing experience). PSP and ps suite compatibility gives significant gaming library from day 1 to alleviate the "NGP has no games" argument. I wouldn't mind rebuying some psp classics to play them, especially now that I don't need to carry those ridiculously large umd carts.

I actually feel like buying this NGP device even though couple weeks back I was thinking psp2 will most likely be like psp1 and I rather skip it because my euro launch psp mostly gathered dust.

Sony still has plenty of time to react to feedback they get from public and modify and tune HW if needed(tv out?). Also the sw stack on NGP has looong time to mature until launch and forward

I wonder how this android phone, ngp, ps3/ps4, sony tv, vaio, tablets? strategy will pan out on longer run... Sony actually has good setup for the future if they don't screw it up on sw/services/integration side(like before)

 

[patsu]

Guardian has an article on NGP:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/gamesblog/2011/jan/28/sony-ngp-behind-the-specs-psp2
Most of these articles compare NGP with other devices spec for spec. I am really curious if what Tim Sweeney said will come into play (e.g., NGP's "raw" hardware access will bring a generation leap compared to other Android devices).

They have done a sh*t ton of work so far (although a sh*t megaton still left to be done ^_^). e.g., Playstation Suite, new hardware, new OS, PSP emulator, PS1 emulator, work-in-progress games, LiveArea and Near network experiences, cloud save, content negotiation for Qriocity, etc.

Can't wait for more PS3 firmware update to see what else is there for us.

 

[jeff_rigby]

But waht TV would support this? What protocol would be used?

The 2011 Broadcom SOC TVs with wireless "N". They have 2 1.3 GhZ mips or Arm processors and H.264 encode/decode for 720P Skype. I.E. LG, Sony, Vizeo and I think Samsung....probably more and there will be receiver to HDMI accessories at $129.00

Doesn't the lack of any mention of TV output in any form convince you more that it's not in, rather than there are secret, highly costly solutions?

As others say, the expansion port hints at docking bay solutions. It's quite possible there'll be a docking bay with HDMI for portable media, which will cover that feature but prevent handheld game use. If said as-yet-pure-speculation docking bay supported blue tooth, there's the outside chance of Sony implementing my Grand Vision. the inbuilt camera could work with Move too. The end result would be a titchy package that brings party gaming to any house, as long as accompanied by a large back of peripherals! But Sony haven't even vaguely hinted that they're looking at this. I can't believe they are intending that, and it'll only be when someone else does it that they'll bring out a new dock or something to compete in my pessimistic view.

Interesting and good thought, to make it clear, you expect HDMI to TV from the docking bay and Move support via camera and blu-tooth. The cradle and PSP2 combination sitting next to the TV.

 

[manux]

I think android(and iPhone) gaming will follow similar suite as PC gaming. The lowest common denominator will be where games are to maximize profits(sales). I suppose this means that android games will be targeted for 1Ghz single core cortex a8 with basic GPU(or even lower like in PS suite...). It will take looong time before android games start to be ambitious enough to challenge NGP with it's quadcore cortex a9 and SGX543 mp4 and low level access to hw. And event then you run into limits of touchscreen input and what casuals are willing to p(l)ay. And even then sony profits from both NGP and android with their new strategy(not to forget ps3/ps4, tv's and whatnots too).

I'm expecting NGP to stay valid gaming/media/internet device for long time(5 years +). Not a bad investement on these times where one changes phones every (other) year and pays dearly for them.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Interesting and good thought, to make it clear, you expect HDMI to TV from the docking bay and Move support via camera and blu-tooth. The cradle and PSP2 combination sitting next to the TV.

Yep. That is my Grand Vision and I think it'd be a compelling sell, though moreso without the need for a cradle.

 

[patsu]

I think android(and iPhone) gaming will follow similar suite as PC gaming. The lowest common denominator will be where games are to maximize profits(sales). I suppose this means that android games will be targeted for 1Ghz single core cortex a8 with basic GPU(or even lower like in PS suite...). It will take looong time before android games start to be ambitious enough to challenge NGP with it's quadcore cortex a9 and SGX543 mp4 and low level access to hw. And event then you run into limits of touchscreen input and what casuals are willing to p(l)ay. And even then sony profits from both NGP and android with their new strategy(not to forget ps3/ps4, tv's and whatnots too).

I'm expecting NGP to stay valid gaming/media/internet device for long time(5 years +). Not a bad investement on these times where one changes phones every (other) year and pays dearly for them.

To dramatize it a little…

From our perspective, Sony is giving us 2 choices. Casual gaming or core gaming. If most of us here chose the former, then iOS-Android type of games has taken over. NGP type of entertainment will get less investment (Good bye, dual sticks). If most of us (core gamers) chose the later, it means core gaming has sustained its footprint because of the NGP-PS3-PC cross play. Each of us decide it for ourselves. I guess that's one of the many reasons Mark Rein said NGP is a pretty big deal for gamers.

That is why, selfishly, I think for the second group, it is imperative for Sony not to let PS3 fall behind, and be part of this new NGP ecosystem. Hopefully, Jack Tretton's PS3 leak is worth something, and not a figment of his imagination.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Let's assume for now it doesn't have video out. We do know that is has a docking port for which functionality has not currently been disclosed. Much more than that is pretty much speculation. I think it should be clear that if they want to do it, they will add it later or add it to a hardware revision. For what it is worth, I never used video out on my PSP, and I am willing to bet that if you look at statistics for video out use of the PSP, they're going to be very low, so I wouldn't be surprised if they made this a very low priority for now. If it turns out to be something in high demand, you can rest assured they will add it later, but right now they probably have the right focus and that is getting the lowest SKU of the device out at a max starting price of $299. I'm willing to bet that HDMI support costs a lot of money still, on such a small device. If you'll get it, it will be later built into a docking station that comes in various shapes and sizes including one with a built-in projector no doubt.

Everything, and I mean everything about this device seems to suggest a lot of consumer acceptance research having taken place for this device and its features, and I'm willing to bet that a low entry price is a very high priority. I think Qriocity also helps here at least in Sony's vision, in that in theory you should be able to watch your movies on the PSP2, and then continue watching on any other device that supports it rather than having to hook up your PSP2 to the TV, the stereo and what not.

I don't buy the cost argument for the HDMI video out. While I agree that video out wasn't really necessary for PSP1, but this thing is so much more powerful and could be used for all sort of media playback functions. Feels absolutely ridiculous if you can't connect this thing into a Sony HDTV. Who's going to carry a docking station with them?

I'm sure leaving it out is some sort of protective move on Sonys' part. More expensive SKU should come with it or the Pad version is going to have it, but those are going to be more expensive. Sony probably don't want to sell this to people who's main focus is not to play games and that makes sense, but after being a feature in PSP1 and now taking the video out away feels really lame. I'm still holding out hope that by the time this releases that somehow the HDMI out has found itself into the unit.

 

[manux]

To dramatize it a little…

From our perspective, Sony is giving us 2 choices. Casual gaming or core gaming. If most of us here chose the former, then iOS-Android type of games has taken over. NGP type of entertainment will get less investment (Good bye, dual sticks). If most of us (core gamers) chose the later, it means core gaming has sustained its footprint because of the NGP-PS3-PC cross play. Each of us decide it for ourselves. I guess that's one of the many reasons Mark Rein said NGP is a pretty big deal for gamers.

Huh,... I better preorder would seriously suck if sony&co would decide to cater mainly for casual gamers in future.

 

[patsu]

I'm a little schizophrenic now. Not sure which camp I belong to.
If Sony makes NGP works with PS3, then it would be a much easy choice for me !

EDIT: The other thing is I can appreciate the exceptional production value in gamers' games, but sometimes the controls and difficulty are overwhelming. Other times, the experience is so compelling that I mastered the controls (see Demon's Soul).

Even though I'm not disabled, I can relate very well to stories like this:
http://kotaku.com/5746736/how-a-video-game-made-him-into-a-major-leaguer
A "one button" gaming mode certainly appeals to me, although I have to play the game to find out.

 

[patsu]

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1517937&postcount=45

Dont' want to be off topic, but i see a lot of potential with future LBP titles by utilize the built-in camera and touch screen. Not just creation but gameplay.

Hey ! While doing my soul searching, I was just thinking about LBP on NGP but in a more general sense.

I think creative/creation type games can be interesting on NGP too, mainly because of NGP's versatility/controls, plus one can source for materials/ideas from outside the TV screen. AR games kinda fall under this category. I was also thinking whether music games can be reinvented on NGP. I still don't quite like simple rhythm-based games (Patapon being an exception). I was wondering if it makes sense to make NGP into a musical instrument, somewhat like Ocarina on iPhone… but perhaps take advantage of Qriocity's music collection.

[size=-2]If I can make great tune/music on NGP, it might not be a bad thing.[/size]

For the other core gamers, I ponder over about "one touch/click gaming" mentioned in my post above.

 

[manux]

I'm a little schizophrenic now. Not sure which camp I belong to.
If Sony makes NGP works with PS3, then it would be a much easy choice for me !

This is offtopic but I think there is a new group of gamers who have previously been core games but have become somewhat dormant. Those players activate only on new experiences and real blockbusters. They skip the tenth sequel of the same game. I think this was quite nicely seen on ps3 where these gamers didn't buy sequels in same amounts as they used to do on ps2 time. I think this might also be visible on next XBox where I would bet most xb1+xb360 sequels will see declining sales trend. People get tired of playing that same ratchet and clank for tenth time... Also if you have gotten older, maybe there is family or work, other hobbies... You prioritize for new experiences and skip on the same old same old...

I belong to that dormant group and I rarely game anymore. It's just the highlights of the year and those odd experiences like flower, flow, heavy rain, little big planet that speak to me. Some stuff this gen was fresh to me when I got xbox360 but for example mass effect2 was lost cause for me(don't really like it as it just feels the same with worse rpg elements... shooters, no thanks)

I think there are ways to reanimate those dormant gamers but it requires fresh ideas and implementations. This could be something as simple as real physics based collision on sport game or 3d/move/kinect support. Next gen if someone manages to make a physics based FPS with real interaction, holes blown to walls, trees falling(and not just scripted stuff) it might be something that makes insane sales as these dormant people might go and buy in masses. If it's only same halo and killzone with better graphics the sales won't be as good as this gen...

 

[wco81]

Or core gamers, including those who had the PSP, play smart phone games to kill some time, and do more serious gaming on the console.

Will be a harder sell to capture those customers again.

 

[_phil_]

Looks like by design , NGP is aimed at bridging two gaming worlds.
I think it makes sense to try that since i don't believe these two worlds are meant to stay separated.
It's pretty easy to envision more continuity between the 2, i think.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Sony probably don't want to sell this to people who's main focus is not to play games and that makes...

But it doesn't any more if Sony are making a push for a media ecosystem. If they are providing Qriocity content on PS3 and their CE devices, so you can buy a movie or TV series or album and play it on any of your Qriocity enabled devices, you are also going to want a portable paltform for that. NGP would be the perfect solution, offering portable content viewing and TV connection so you can watch your content anywhere. Add in a web browser for buying/renting new content, and NGP takes on a second role as a sort of digibox. It would be a portable way to add internet TV to non internet TVs and connect people to Sony's content network irrespective of which brand TV they own.

Sony really lacks vision at times.

 

[Bigduo209]

Spoiler

Colour me surprised!

There are various workarounds we can dream up, but the product was announced without offering TV out, meaning Sony are not saying, "and yes, this little device will serve as your portable media player with GBs of content you can play directly out to your TV at 720p". In fact, what have they said about viewing content anyway? We haven't heard of any on-board flash.

50 million PSPs have been sold. I don't believe most of them were drawn to PSP for its quality and fidelity to the home console experience. I think a lot picked it for its media capabilities - it had a strikingly good screen for its time of release, and was price competitively with things like Archos while also offering other entertainment functions including games. PSP is no longer the only full media platform; they can all do everything. Meaning now the reasons to own a PSP, for gaming, films, music, web browsing, all in one package, are no longer reasons to get NGP when your mobile already does that, including GPS, internet access, yada yada. The only differentiator now is the game potential, which won't appeal to everyone. So how many of the 50 million PSP buyers care for twin-stick shooters and Monster Hunter? If 10 million, that leaves 40 million without a particular tie to NGP. Thus we can't look at NGP even repeating PSP's respectible success, unless tens of millions of console gamers also want to play those same games on the go Which we can be confident isn't the case given existing console gamers saying, "I want to play those experiences on my console."

In a way it's like PSS is there to shore up the probably titchy market, with developers being told they don't have to target a small user base but will have a huge one, with Sony able to invest in PSS exclusives to single-handedly try and attract buyers with titles like Uncharted and LBP.

I don't know where I fit in when it comes to either the casual or hardcore crowd. I don't have a smart-phone because while the multimedia features are nice, it costs too much with or without the contract for me. I wanted the PSP1 to be a good PMP and a good portable gaming handheld, but it felt like it fell short on both sides.

Gaming-wise: The PSP had a lot console-like experiences, but few of them were good. They were filled with long loading times, loud whirling noises, and were battery draining all because of UMDs. I hated UMDs but I also like tangible media I can stores, so that felt like a double-edged sword. The games were poor versions of the console games, the console-like experience was there but barely tolerable. The good games that made me take notice was stuff like Lumines, Crush, and Capcom classic title games. I didn't hate the PSP's console-lite efforts because they lacked a second stick, it was because they were barely achievable technical messes (game installs didn't help matters either).

Multimedia-wise: The web browser is crap (everyone knows that), it's horrible with it's "out of memory" error alone. The mp3 player was solid, but the sound was not good, and there was no real sound settings. The photo options were pretty good at the time, having large resolution pictures on the PSP was cool because of the zooming and rotating functions. The video player didn't really come into it's own until Sony allowed MP4 AVC files, gave you the ability to name them, and added the scene search feature (I wished Sony allowed more formats).

I felt that once the PSP got hacked Sony forgot about updating and improving the PSP's existing features. Damn near every firmware update that came with it was for security, security that any PSP hacker would be smart to ignore. I saw a lot of cool features that homebrewers were developing that Sony never caught on to, especially better theme customization and being able to play any game while listening to music. I want to Sony to really study every area the PSP dabbled in, and seriously improve it.

I hope Sony can deliver a better all around portable device, and deliver games that are unique to it (and not too similar to the console stuff). If they can do that, I'll buy the PSP2/NGP instead of the newest iPod-Touch that'll be released after the NGP's US launch.

Spoiler

It's almost like Sony is trying to do a lot of thing with this device, but not quite doing enough. It's feels like it's caught between being a specialized device that does one thing very well (3DS) and devices that do a little bit of everything, but not quite sure what exactly it wants to do.

I dunno, I guess I'm somewhat confused as to who Sony are trying to target with this.

The core gamer is obvious. But if they really wanted the core gamer, an evolution of the PSP would be much better. Shoulder buttons being far more comfortable and useable than the side buttons this features.

It appears they want to target on the go media types, but seem to miss the boat when they don't include a way to display video on a TV something that, IMO, is only going to get more common on tablets going forward.

Hell as it is, going forward, I see closed system tablets (iPad for example) losing out to open system tablets (unlocked Android, Windows, and perhaps OSX) where users can install whatever they want. In that aspect, the NGP becomes less attractive as time goes on, IMO.

Still, that said. I do really like the design.

Regards,
SB

I'm curious as to how Sony will do apps, how well will the apps function (with enough creative freedom) with NGP's OS? Will Sony's apps certification process be easy enough to lure some people in to create or bring existing apps to the NGP? Will Sony even allow people alone to make apps and not just big companies who can only afford to invest into doing such things?

I hope Sony allows for a bit of legal homebrewing to happen on the NGP. I'm only hoping for that if Sony doesn't crank out some interesting firmware updates to improve the user-end experience, not just more security updates for future piracy threats.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'm curious as to how Sony will do apps, how well will the apps function (with enough creative freedom) with NGP's OS? Will Sony's apps certification process be easy enough to lure some people in to create or bring existing apps to the NGP? Will Sony even allow people alone to have apps and not just big companies who can only afford to invest into such things?

Their current PSN setup gets enough attention, although the cost of entry is higher than Android or iOS apps. I imagine Sony sticking with this model to 'price out the riff-raff' and keep a minimum quality level just through the intial investment required,

I hope Sony allows for a bit of legal homebrewing to happen on the NGP. I'm only hoping for that if Sony doesn't crank out some interesting firmware updates to improve the user-end experience, not just more security updates for future piracy threats.

PSS makes sense for homebrew as it'll be a walled garden, and portable between platforms. Being able to write one app that can be sold to Android, PS, and PC would be an excellent prospect for developers.