Sony's NeoGeo Pocket's (PSP2/Vita) business/non technical ramifications talk

[Shifty Geezer]

It's funny to hear everyone complaining about the memory card prices for Vita though. When i first got my PSP i paid an arm and a leg for my memory stick duo. So nothing much has changed really, it was obvious this was gonna be the case (shoddy as it is).

Except 1) People did complain about MemStick prices and 2) Sony appeared to have moved on from awkward proprietary formats with PS3. I was fully expecting SD card support in their next handheld. A new format is surprising, and charging as much as they are is taking the biscuit IMO.

Are we comparing apples to apples though? We don't know the speeds? Even the really cheap 8GB card costs like 23 euro here btw.

Really? I can get Class 10 8GB SDHC for £7.29. It's also worth noting that class 10 is basically overkill for everyone. I've an HD camcorder that records up to 25 Mbps which is high quality h.264, and that requires Class 4 (4 MB/s, 32 Mbps). Now running games straight from SD card, Class 10 makes sense, but I seriously doubt Sony are offering better speeds with their proprietary format. *If* they are, and it means a notably better experience, than I can forgive them somewhat. If it's just repacking an SD SRAM chip in a different package, then I'll be most put out. I can use the same storage in PC, camera, camcorder and mobile phone, but not in the portable device? That doesn't make sense. Why allow people to put their SD card in their PS3 and view photos but not do the same with their Vita? Or take videos with your Vita and watch them on a PC or PS3 by plugging in the card?

Edit : Sony have spoken. Pointless PR twaddle without real meat - they're just price gouging on a secure mem system. I'm sure a lot of Vita owners are going to be hoping the hackers can reverse engineer a system to get SD cards working.

 

[wco81]

Because this is one way for them to hold down the prices of the Vita, by recouping margins on a necessary accessory?

I think the bigger problem is that by this time next year, mobile devices will match or exceed the performance of the Vita. It won't have the Vita games of course but it won't take too long before there are mini games with better graphics than the Vita on phones.

 

[patsu]

Clarifications and updates from the Japan team:
http://andriasang.com/comz65/vita_developer_interview/

...

Video Support
Vita will support 720p video. It won't support 1080p, but Shimada stressed that this is just at present. It's possible that future updates could bring updated functionality, said Shimada. However, he noted that the Vita display only supports 544 pixels vertical resolution, so anything above that will be scaled down anyway, so 720p is a reasonable value.

Remote Play
This appears to be with regards to a future feature, but Shimada said that the system's Remote Play will upconvert video to higher resolution. They're able to do this because the Vita supports a higher spec wireless LAN compared to PSP (802.11n or g as opposed to PSP's b). He noted, however, that the video encoding for remote play is done on the PS3 end, so it all depends on what they can do on the PS3.

Wakai added when using Remote Play on the PS3's XMB or the Torne DVR player, you'll get the experience in high resolution.

Custom Soundtracks
When using the system's Media Player to play music, and you switch back to a game, the music playback can be kept playing in the background. While there are some limitations, the game's sound effects should be able to overlay directly over the custom sound. All this is done without the game doing anything special, and the feature should work with all games.

PSP Backwards Compatibility
PSP backwards compatibility is achieved through a combination of both software and hardware. There are some assist functions on the hardware, Shimada explained without sharing details.

The system has an extremely high level of backwards compatibility with PSP software, Shimada said, adding that with future firmware updates the compatibility can be made even better.

On Custom Memory Cards
Explained Shimada, The reason Sony didn't use general memory cards like SD Cards and instead opted for a custom memory card is because they wanted to make sure they could have something with an equal condition for everyone. Additionally, they were concerned with security.

Shimada also drew distinction about describing the cards as merely a device for saving games. They're "storage" for the Vita, and are used for patches, game data, download content and more.

No Mac Support Initially
Vita will not be recognized as a mass storage device on your computer. You'll need to use a separate utility device. PS3 already has this utility built in as of the latest firmware update. A PC utility will be released before the system's release date.

Here, they reiterated that the memory card is for (consistent) performance and security reasons.

 

[patsu]

Just about, yeah.

As far as prices dropping, I think what Sony will end up doing is phasing out cheaper/smaller product while still keeping the pricepoints in tact.

2012:
$20 4gb
$40 8gb

2014:
$20 8gb
$40 16gb

2016:
$20 16gb
$40 32gb

They will want to remain reflective of price movements in the market, but will also want to keep the same or better cash-flow coming in off these peripherals while leaving plenty for retailers as well.

It may not be so clear cut. They are unlikely to clear the inventory on the market so cleanly. So... following your logic above:

2012:
$20 4gb
$40 8gb

2014:
$10+ ? 4Gb
$20 8gb
$40 16gb

so on and so forth. It may be possible to get pre-owned cards from secondary market also. Plus, Sony can always bundle a small one with Vita, as they have done for launch.

The card cost is higher than commodity cards because of (low) volume.

The value of Vita should be more than just the card cost. People are getting hung up by the card because Sony has not given consumers other positive reasons to talk about Vita. ^_^

The games alone are unlikely to do the trick IMHO. Personally, I think home console ports for Vita may be interesting, but the press and general public will be looking for "new experience" (to compare with iOS/Android).

 

[patsu]

And now, some limitations:

[At launch,] Vita Web Browser Can't Be Used While Playing Games
http://andriasang.com/comz6e/vita_browser/

Impress Watch updated its Random Tracking feature about Vita's multimedia features (see this story for a summary) with a correction about the web browser component. The story had originally said that the browser can be opened up while you've paused a game. Following the story's publication, Sony contacted the site and said that this is not the case. Initially, the Vita will not be able to run the browser simultaneously with a game. In other words, if you want to open the browser, you'll have to exit your game entirely.

The wording of Sony's correction suggests that this is an issue that will be fixed via an update following the system's release.

 

[patsu]

And this is the biggest disappointment so far. I believe Eurogamer rumor, and another Shuhei interview talked about univeral RemotePlay.

Sony Denies Reports of Full Remote Play Compatibility for PS Vita
http://andriasang.com/comz64/vita_remote_play/

Freelance journalist Munechika Nishida conducted an interview with Sony's PlayStation Vita development staff for the latest installment of his "Random Tracking" series at Impress Watch. He asked Sony Computer Entertainment Senior VP Yoshio Matsumoto and Division 2 Software Development Head Muneki Shimada about the reports.

"That information is mistaken," said Matsumoto. "The compatibility is achieved on the side of the PS3 game, just like normal." Shimada agreed, saying that as with previous implementations of Remote Play, games will need API support.

This appears to mean no catch-me-all solution for making all PS3 games playable remotely on Vita.

While Sony demonstrated Killzone 3's Remote Play support at the Tokyo Game Show in September, it has not said when Vita owners will get to try out Remote Play for themselves in games.

While not game related, Remote Play will be available from day one for PS3's "Torne" DVR device. This will be achieved via a free update to Torne's firmware, which is due for release shortly.

So, at launch, it's only RemotePlay for Torne.

 

[patsu]

A Gaffer posted his photos @ Vita Hill Social Club opening
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=33132972&postcount=23

I may drop by this Sunday, after my kid's soccer outing up @ San Mateo.

 

[wco81]

I would think 1080p decode should be possible as mobile devices with comparable SOCs can.

Of course, they are enabled to output 1080p to external displays, something which Sony didn't in order to keep their handheld devices separate from consoles.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The value of Vita should be more than just the card cost. People are getting hung up by the card because Sony has not given consumers other positive reasons to talk about Vita. ^_^

I think after initial excitement and expectations on what could have been made, the end product is showing a lot of holes that are now being picked apart. Choice of not using SD isn't just about cost but also functionality, with SD being a pretty universal media to exchange data between devices without needing to wire them up or use particular software. No 1080p video doesn't make sense when a £70 tablet supports 1080p video and has HDMI out, making the same 1080p content on SD card playable on PS3, PC, tablet and TV. I mean, they've completely failed to integrate Vita with their photo division. A screen the quality of Vita's would be awesome to review 1080p video from my camcorder, but it can't be done for no good reason. The value of Vita as a rival to smartphones and tablets keeps dropping IMO. Now Vita is only really of value to those wanting a better portable gaming experience. Anyone wanting a better portable experience (media, communications, ease-of-use, yadayada) has a wealth of other options that just keeps on growing. Vita not standing out head-and-shoulders above everyone else now means it'll look less and less inticing as the years roll by. Personally I'm now looking forward to what Asus may bring out in a small form factor, given how awesome their transformer is.

 

[Arwin]

Hey, if multimedia is what you care about, there are certainly alternatives. Personally, I primarily care about the games, so there really aren't any. I would have liked it if they had allowed me to read my media just by plugging in a USB cable though, as that would have been better (in case you haven't noticed, your new PS3 doesn't have an SD card reader). On the other hand, the most important for me at the moment for sharing media is youtube, social apps, and the Vita being able to consume DNLA stuff directly from my network drive. The iPhone can't do the latter, which is a bit sad, but even there you see most people just using stuff like Picasa, Facebook or Hyves (Dutch version of Facebook).

We'll see where it goes. They gave customers pretty much free reign with the PSP, and they were severely punished for it. That's where I hope they'll support 1080p eventually, so I can stream everything I have on there directly to it (though it seems that server is having issues already with 16MP photos over DNLA, maybe I need a firmware update)

As for playing games from a flash drive, the 360's support for it, which I've tested, has shown that there are pretty huge variations in read, write, and seek times between pretty much anything you put in there. I'm sure there are lists / tests out there detailing this. However, they also may just want to make some money on it as long as they find they have to sell the unit at a loss otherwise. I'm pretty sure they'd have put big internal memory inside if they could have afforded it, so people buy more off of PSN.

 

[patsu]

I would think 1080p decode should be possible as mobile devices with comparable SOCs can.

Of course, they are enabled to output 1080p to external displays, something which Sony didn't in order to keep their handheld devices separate from consoles.

[size=-2]Battery life. Battery life. Battery life.[/size]
The SKU has no video out. So 1080p content will have to be scaled down to 960x544, just like 720p.

There is no real need to keep Vita separate from PS3 these days, Vita can benefit from PS3 integration. However, they need to make Vita gaming more *unique* compared to PS3. 1080p video support on Vita won't achieve that.

 

[patsu]

I think after initial excitement and expectations on what could have been made, the end product is showing a lot of holes that are now being picked apart. Choice of not using SD isn't just about cost but also functionality, with SD being a pretty universal media to exchange data between devices without needing to wire them up or use particular software. No 1080p video doesn't make sense when a £70 tablet supports 1080p video and has HDMI out, making the same 1080p content on SD card playable on PS3, PC, tablet and TV. I mean, they've completely failed to integrate Vita with their photo division. A screen the quality of Vita's would be awesome to review 1080p video from my camcorder, but it can't be done for no good reason. The value of Vita as a rival to smartphones and tablets keeps dropping IMO. Now Vita is only really of value to those wanting a better portable gaming experience. Anyone wanting a better portable experience (media, communications, ease-of-use, yadayada) has a wealth of other options that just keeps on growing. Vita not standing out head-and-shoulders above everyone else now means it'll look less and less inticing as the years roll by. Personally I'm now looking forward to what Asus may bring out in a small form factor, given how awesome their transformer is.

They are talking about the Japan launch (Argh... Torne compatibility. Why no US launch ?).

We should be looking at another firmware update for the US and EU launch.

I don't think they want to compete with smartphones and tablets in terms of functionality. It would be like comparing consoles to PCs. But I think they want to make Vita more fun to use than the other devices. It should have an exclusive and unique entertainment experience.

EDIT:
In other words, focus on the Vita gaming experience first. Then, support 1080p video when they add video-out, and perhaps a better battery.

We haven't really seen anything out of this world yet, except dual stick support, backface tracking, simple AR games, and the polka dot UI.

 

[wco81]

There is no video-out because they don't want it to compete with their consoles. IOW, if people can hook up the Vita to the HDTV like the PS3 or PS4, some gamers may decide, "I don't need both a Vita and a PS4, Vita is good enough and I have it with me all the time."

That is why PSP didn't have video out. People were critical of this lack from the beginning of the PSP too.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I don't think they want to compete with smartphones and tablets in terms of functionality.

No, but as they are starting to compete with them on price, it's a comparison Sony have brought on themselves. People only have so much money to spend. Do they get a cheaper simple phone and a fancy portable gaming console that does all the smart-phone stuff as well as game, or get a fancy smart-phone and a cheapish portable gaming device for the games? Only Sony's choice is now a rather expensive gaming device and still a need for a smart-phone.

Yes, Sony have the high-quality portable gaming system market all to themselves. There's nothing out there that'll be able to compete for some years. Even devices with better hardware won't have Sony's games or the proper controls. But Sony have bet a large slice of their farm that this market is actually quite big. I don't think it is. I think the reason PSP sold as many devices as it did was because it offered multimedia functionality when no-one else was. Now that everyone does, being just a games platform won't cut it. And Sony realise this as they are putting in social apps etc., but at the same time they gimp their device so it can't compete on every level.

 

[tuna]

There is no video-out because they don't want it to compete with their consoles. IOW, if people can hook up the Vita to the HDTV like the PS3 or PS4, some gamers may decide, "I don't need both a Vita and a PS4, Vita is good enough and I have it with me all the time."

That is why PSP didn't have video out. People were critical of this lack from the beginning of the PSP too.

You can do video out with a PSP.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

You can do video out with a PSP.

It was added later. I don't agree with Wco81's theory though. PS4 will be a world away from Vita. If people would have felt PSP was good enough and they didn't need PS3, then those same people would have stuck with PS2. No-one who would be interested in PS4's next-gen is going to shy away from it to get a Vita or Android with TV out.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

A comment piece on Eurogamer has this to say:

In other words, there'll be a range of price points, rather than a single fixed one, for Vita games; and Sony wants to make it more family-friendly fast - which could well mean a price cut, as well as more wide-appeal games, by Christmas 2012.

It could be that the high price now (for the whole package) is just to maximise launch revenues, but Sony's long term plan is a much lower, wide-appeal pricepoint that'll be introduced after the rather limited (IMHO) core-gamer interested has been used up.

 

[wco81]

I thought PSP didn't have video out until one of the last revisions, like the PSP without the UMD drive that didn't sell that well?

 

[wco81]

A comment piece on Eurogamer has this to say:
It could be that the high price now (for the whole package) is just to maximise launch revenues, but Sony's long term plan is a much lower, wide-appeal pricepoint that'll be introduced after the rather limited (IMHO) core-gamer interested has been used up.

I don't think price cuts will be from their choice.

If they're smart, they're planning on it because they see what the mobile device road map looks like and presumably, they will be able to realize cost savings from their SOC over time.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I don't think price cuts will be from their choice.

More like factored in to the release price. Perhaps a more realistic price forced by the industry is and always was on the cards, but Sony reckon they can sell a good few million to early-adopters at this inflated price. Similar to how XB360 could have been released at a higher price given how eBay prices reflected demand in the context of shortages - this would be like MS launching at $100 more than their intended $400 price to milk the first buyers. We'll have to see what happens to the price in the following year.