PS3 Controller Rumor (Updated)

Xenus said:
I'm sorry to say but if you cannot memorize the position of 4 to 8 buttons you probably shouldn't be playing video games.
Did you play God of War on the PS2?

Did you do well at the minigame where the game flashes an image of a button at you when you attack a certain enemy, and you have to hit the right button within LESS than a second only to have a new button flashed at you - and it's never the same button combinations twice in a row?

Lemme tell you... I've owned a PS2 since christmas '92 and I completely blew it on that particular minigame. It's just not an intuitive system having geometric symbols on the buttons. GC buttons are a whole different matter. Not only are they of different colors, they're different sizes, and SHAPES as well, and are arranged in a non-symmetrical pattern on top of it all. It's just one of those things that made the GC pad the superior pad this gen. All those differences makes you know which button to press in an instant.
 
Nah but I blew on a similiar miny game on FFX-2 where you had to do that I couldn't get past the third level, but that was a combo of quick button pushing. Had to do like 3 or 4 shown at a time very quickly and had to do it about 15 times or more it was horrible..
 
Johnny Awesome said:
The dual shock is terrible IMO. Also, someone was smoking crack when they decided to use triangle, square etc... instead of the usual A, B, etc...

Why were they smoking crack? How anyone can say that the DS is terrible is beyond me but I'll respect that as long as their criticism at least is intelligent. What's the big difference of using simple geometric shapes compared to letters and why does it matter? Now that's just ridiculous and dumb criticism.
 
Guden Oden said:
Did you play God of War on the PS2?

Did you do well at the minigame where the game flashes an image of a button at you when you attack a certain enemy, and you have to hit the right button within LESS than a second only to have a new button flashed at you - and it's never the same button combinations twice in a row?

Lemme tell you... I've owned a PS2 since christmas '92 and I completely blew it on that particular minigame. It's just not an intuitive system having geometric symbols on the buttons. GC buttons are a whole different matter. Not only are they of different colors, they're different sizes, and SHAPES as well, and are arranged in a non-symmetrical pattern on top of it all. It's just one of those things that made the GC pad the superior pad this gen. All those differences makes you know which button to press in an instant.

Really? '92 eh? Before the PS1? ;)

Anyways, really folks. Four-buttons, four shapes. Triangle is on top, circle to the right, square to the left and x on the bottom. If you can't get that into your head just before those mini-games (which I did no problem, the only tough parts were manipulating the analogue control, sometimes I did full circles rather than half circles) then tough luck. If you can memorize a phone number then you can easily attach the shapes to which buttons to press.

I've had to wrap my brain around more complicated things than visualizing shapes on buttons... Really people...
 
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scooby_dooby said:
That's true, except for games that have certain button pressing mini-games incorporated into their gameplay, Fahreinheit comes to mind, or thos dance games, that have to doing combinations of button presses the screen shows "x,x,y,b,y,b,a" you have to remember what letter correspons to each position, irrelevent of the action normally assigned to that button in regular gameply.

I tend to agree with Shifty Geezer, in regard to position, in the end all I remember is manipulating the controller, this action on controller to jump, that action to shoot, etc. For games that requires that kind of gameplay, it would be like this action on controller to 'x'. that action to 'y', ect. No problem at all.

If you try to remember the name of the button to do an action, in the end you still have to remember its position before you press it. So you might as well just map the position to the action in the game. That way you'll improve your reaction time.

So they can write whatever button on the controller, and call it whatever button in the game for all I care. As long as they keep it through out the whole game.

Also, IMO in a game that requires "x,x,y,b,y,b,a" type of input, it would better if they actually show the position of the button in the game instead of just name or color of the button, I am sure people will have easier time. Same goes with those retarded tutorial that's so common now. If you must, I think it would be more helpful to actually have a picture of the controller, with the button you have to press. Instead of just 'x' to jump.
 
Just to reinforce Shifty's position....

With regards to mapping the actions to the buttons, it's pretty much useless these days in terms of knowing "a, B , X, Y" positions. Because most games allow you to configure the button maps based on your taste, most in game tutorials (save a few, eg God of War and Resident Evil 4) refer to the buttons as the "action button" or the "crouch button," but rarely refer to the symbol of the button. That way people know that the "top" button is to crouch, the right button is to activate microphone, etc...

It's all about knowing the the actions of the buttons, not their symbolic representations.
 
jonnyp said:
Why were they smoking crack? How anyone can say that the DS is terrible is beyond me but I'll respect that as long as their criticism at least is intelligent. What's the big difference of using simple geometric shapes compared to letters and why does it matter? Now that's just ridiculous and dumb criticism.
Letters and numbers have a natural progression, which goes well together with a clockwise distribution of the buttons (or left-to-right+top-to-bottom for that matter). Sure needing to remember a 4 to 4 mapping rather than the position of only a single button is on the whole only a very small difference in learning curve, but it remains a stupid decision.
 
Shifty Geezer said:
Again, that's not how gameplay works (though I agree with your sentiments regards Xenus). When you want to perform an action, let's say Shoot in PES, the thought>action process does not go...

Want to Shoot
...fetch Shoot Symbol from memory
...Shoot Symbol=Square
...Locate Square Button position
...Square button = left on pad
...Press left button on pad
Shoot

What happens is

Want to shoot
...Press shoot button
Shoot

The problem isn't playing once you've learned the controls, it's learning the controls so that you can play. It creates an unnecessary barrier to entry to buy your first PS2 and a shooting game, go though the tutorial, and have to look down at the controller every time you want to open a door until you've opened a door 50 times and remember what the "use" button feels like. Then woe to you if you get a shooting game with a different button configuration. Or take a game like RE4. When "A+B" or "L+R" flashes in a cutscene, you need only cursory familiarity with the Cube controller to know what to press. If you're a Playstation n00b, seeing "Triangle + X" won't be intuitive. If you see a big round button on the screen, you just press the only big round button you feel under your thumb. Nintendo's Cube controller is so genius because it directly links visual and tactile inputs. You see "right kidney," you press the button that feels like it. You see "Square," you have to basically fetch from memory where Square is, or have learned the controller so well that you automatically associate Square with pressing the lower button. Or the right button. I can't remember which it is.

"If you don't like it, tough" isn't an attitude that's going to grow the market, that's for sure.
 
fearsomepirate said:
The problem isn't playing once you've learned the controls, it's learning the controls so that you can play. It creates an unnecessary barrier to entry to buy your first PS2 and a shooting game, go though the tutorial, and have to look down at the controller every time you want to open a door until you've opened a door 50 times and remember what the "use" button feels like. Then woe to you if you get a shooting game with a different button configuration. Or take a game like RE4. When "A+B" or "L+R" flashes in a cutscene, you need only cursory familiarity with the Cube controller to know what to press. If you're a Playstation n00b, seeing "Triangle + X" won't be intuitive. If you see a big round button on the screen, you just press the only big round button you feel under your thumb. Nintendo's Cube controller is so genius because it directly links visual and tactile inputs. You see "right kidney," you press the button that feels like it. You see "Square," you have to basically fetch from memory where Square is, or have learned the controller so well that you automatically associate Square with pressing the lower button. Or the right button. I can't remember which it is.

"If you don't like it, tough" isn't an attitude that's going to grow the market, that's for sure.

I agree 100%. i just picked up a cube with RE4 and the controls really are easy to grasp. if i die because i dont hit a button configuration, its usually because i put the controller down. Nintendo's knowledge of controllers gets me excited for rev because the controls should be even more intuitive. If you want your character to kneel, just do a quick motion downward. If you want to get up, just motion upward. if you want to roll left or right to dodge something, just do the motion.

I think you get the point. trying to remember a symbol is much harder than trying to remember a button that is shaped differently and has a unique feel, plus the buttons are different colors, making it even easier.

and the rev makes buttons secondary, the main stuff can be done with 3d motion, and thats even easier.
 
Guden Oden said:
Did you play God of War on the PS2?

Did you do well at the minigame where the game flashes an image of a button at you when you attack a certain enemy, and you have to hit the right button within LESS than a second only to have a new button flashed at you - and it's never the same button combinations twice in a row?

Lemme tell you... I've owned a PS2 since christmas '92 and I completely blew it on that particular minigame. It's just not an intuitive system having geometric symbols on the buttons. GC buttons are a whole different matter. Not only are they of different colors, they're different sizes, and SHAPES as well, and are arranged in a non-symmetrical pattern on top of it all. It's just one of those things that made the GC pad the superior pad this gen. All those differences makes you know which button to press in an instant.
God of War killed me in this aspect and it got so that I hated the symbols. Like any poor UI design, I blamed myself for being an idiot who can't remember four freakin' symbols. Then I realized: naw, this is Sony's fault for choosing symbols that have zero meaning and when my monkey brain is doing its cute pattern matching, there's no spatial correlation between the four symbols. And to add on to that they threw in a doppelganger for a Letter--just to make sure my brain wastes a few cycles searching for letters while we're at it...

It's not about learning button placement--that's easy. It's when the game requires interaction by direction: Press the X button, Press the Triangle button, etc. I've just spent the weekend playing DQVIII, and I can tell you with 100% certainty that clicking the bottom button is an Action (talk, pickup, etc) and that the left button is Map, the right button is Menu, Top is cancel. But I'm only 90% positve that X is the bottom one, Triangle is top. I have no clue what the left and right ones are. Square and Circle, of course, but it's a toss up where they go.

It is really, really bad to use spatial-agnostic symbols in a spatially important environment.

.Sis

EDIT: I would add that ABXY is not a whole lot better. There is a relationship between A and B, X and Y, but not really betwee AB and XY, but once you have the placement for one, it's simple to figure out the rest. Knowing the placement of Circle or Triangle does nothing for the other three buttons.
 
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It is really, really bad to use spatial-agnostic symbols in a spatially important environment.
I disagree.
I can type around 100 words per minute - and a PC keyboard places the letters completely out of the spatial/alphabetical ordering you guys find so important. Yet somehow my fingers manage to 'remember' positions of all the 102 without having to think or look for them.

On the other hand, I'm completely stumped when I try playing with XBox controller - and I have to actually look for positions of those A/B etc. buttons all the time.
I find nothing intuitive about their layout, and frankly if I have to think about the logic of the placement to find keys I'm wasting just much time as if I keep looking down the controller. Either way I'll suck with the controller until I've used it long enough for the button presses to become intuitive.
 
Fafalada said:
I disagree.
I can type around 100 words per minute - and a PC keyboard places the letters completely out of the spatial/alphabetical ordering you guys find so important. Yet somehow my fingers manage to 'remember' positions of all the 102 without having to think or look for them.

On the other hand, I'm completely stumped when I try playing with XBox controller - and I have to actually look for positions of those A/B etc. buttons all the time.
I find nothing intuitive about their layout, and frankly if I have to think about the logic of the placement to find keys I'm wasting just much time as if I keep looking down the controller. Either way I'll suck with the controller until I've used it long enough for the button presses to become intuitive.

Exactly, AB/YX is really no more intuitive than anything else, and shapes are no less so. You have to learn the controller no matter what.

I'm completely lost on an Xbox controller, mostly because I haven't spent much time with it -- I know the PS controller layout very well, because I've used it for the last 10 years.

Some of the logical jumps that have been made are rather disheartening -- they don't even make sense.

When you hand a person a controller that they've never really used, no matter what they are going to be confused as to where the buttons are, regardless of shape, color, or designation written on the button (if you don't know the controller without thinking about it you can't feasibly play a lot of games anyways) -- there isn't really a way around this, unless you take away almost all the buttons (which is what Nintendo is seemingly trying to do).
 
I'm pretty much 100% comfortable with the DS button placement, I can remember where the square and circle are, though I remember it took me some time to learn them, especially I often mixed the square and circle. Then I made a note in my mind that circle is like "rising sun" and thus it's in the right, ie "east", so square is in the west.
Of course not anymore do I have to think it like that, it all comes totally naturally.

I can imagine myself having difficulties with X,Y,A,B configuration though, at first there'd be no natural indication whether it's the XY or AB that are first, is it YX, BA or AB, XY and on top of that, do I start memorising it from the top button or the left button ABXY or BXYA...)
With DS the triangle and X were very easy to remember from the beginning (triangle points "at top" X... well it was sort of the default action button so it was soon memorized.
Only the square and triangle were left to be learned. The colours never really had any meaning to me, I don't remember them now... maybe square was some pinkinsh and circle red?
Nowadays I don't think of the shapes as much than just the button placement (bottom is action, top is menu, left is run, right is secondary attack...) I think it's only during when I learn the controls first time that I think of the shapes.
If the buttons are physically different size and/or shape, that I don't see making much difference, except the largest, most distinctive button would of course be easiest to remember, and like in GC the centre, but that'd still leave the two identical buttons. And if the buttons were not used for same actions in every game, I'd have to memorize the actions again anyway.

To me I think the DS was easy enough to learn, maybe if I had been an avid console player before PS it would have been difficult to learn away from the familiar XYAB configuration, but coming in fresh I think it might have been even easier to learn the shapes, than if I had to learn "is it B, A or A, B... X, Y or Y, X... to me even now when I look at controllers with letters they always look like the leters are somehow backwards i.e. either Y becomes before X, or B before A ?? Even looking at them makes me a bit confused, but I'm sure it hould not take long to master them.
 
Fafalada said:
I disagree.
I can type around 100 words per minute - and a PC keyboard places the letters completely out of the spatial/alphabetical ordering you guys find so important. Yet somehow my fingers manage to 'remember' positions of all the 102 without having to think or look for them.

On the other hand, I'm completely stumped when I try playing with XBox controller - and I have to actually look for positions of those A/B etc. buttons all the time.
I find nothing intuitive about their layout, and frankly if I have to think about the logic of the placement to find keys I'm wasting just much time as if I keep looking down the controller. Either way I'll suck with the controller until I've used it long enough for the button presses to become intuitive.
I don't think a Keyboard to Controller comparison really works. On the keyboard, you are inputting the exact key you are pressing, teaching your brain the spatial relationship directly through its use. A controller uses symbological mapping between what you want to do and what the button is. Using shapes removes any built-in relationship, since Triangle has no relationship to Circle; they're both just shapes floating out there.

At least with ABXY you have some sense of order and position. If you were to stop me in the middle of the day, I couldn't tell you where ABXY were on the Xbox controller--but as soon as I know where A is, I'm set on the other 3. This is just not true for the shapes; you either memorize where they all are or you don't have any accuracy when playing a game. (And also, as I said in my EDIT, ABXY is not perfect, just better, IMO, than shapes)

.Sis
 
rabidrabbit said:
Nowadays I don't think of the shapes as much than just the button placement (bottom is action, top is menu, left is run, right is secondary attack...) I think it's only during when I learn the controls first time that I think of the shapes.
This is primarily what I'm talking about. Learning button positions is easy, mapping the button placement to symbol is not. God of War had the timed actions that required exact button presses based on screen input. I played that game hours on end and though I got better at quickly mapping a symbol to a button location, it was always painful.

.Sis
 
The physical differences on the Gamecube controller really do help a ton. Also on games that may show the key, often times they'll show how its physically different, you dont ever have to look you can simply feel.

I dont mind the DS2 button layout, I just wish they'd use something other than shapes. Probably numbers perferably really, lay them out clock wise. That'd be good.
 
Sis said:
This is primarily what I'm talking about. Learning button positions is easy, mapping the button placement to symbol is not. God of War had the timed actions that required exact button presses based on screen input. I played that game hours on end and though I got better at quickly mapping a symbol to a button location, it was always painful.

.Sis
True, but I just can't see how it would be any more easier with an ABXY (or XYAB, or BAYX???) buttons.
 
Sis said:
I don't think a Keyboard to Controller comparison really works. On the keyboard, you are inputting the exact key you are pressing, teaching your brain the spatial relationship directly through its use. A controller uses symbological mapping between what you want to do and what the button is. Using shapes removes any built-in relationship, since Triangle has no relationship to Circle; they're both just shapes floating out there.
I don't think in the main people need to start again from scratch trying ot remember the placement of the different buttons. If I get a new game and see 'Press Triangle for Jump' I know already that's the top button. I don't have to look at the controller and think 'where's that triangle button?' for every game. From PES to FIFA and back again, I know the Shoot and Lob buttons are reversed. Sometimes I mix them up between games, but once I've reminded myself it's 'the other button' to shoot, I adapt. I don't need to look at the controller and think 'that's Square, which is shoot in the other game, but not this one.' If you learn the placement of the controls then attaching them to actions per game shouldn't require any reference to the controller icons. In the same way if you play a PC game you can map any control to any letters, but don't need to reference the keyboard. I know in GW that W is forward and Tab, how I configured it, is select next enemy, and was comfortable with these controls from the beginning. I remember Morrowind where I changed the jump and action buttons I think to keep them local to each other, but it wasn't an impossible hurdle and I didn't need to think 'which button do I use for jump?' confusing it with other games.

Anyone who's had a PS2 a while should be okay with the button positions. Likewise with XB. If you handed me an XB controller and said 'press the B button' I'd need to look where that was, but it wouldn't be long before I'd learnt it. I've only played one XB game when a friend got one free at an MS dev conference and we played the Oddworld game. None of us had any trouble playing it. We're used to moving our thumb left, right, up and down to do different things, regardless of the colour or icon on the button. If it were Y to jump, we'd look where Y was and map that to the up button, and that was that. This is a skill I guess most gamers have, andit's certainly a skill that can vary a lot from person to person. Some people will undoubtedly have a mental block with some placements (a friend on the Weekend for some reason kept tryig to use R1+Triangle in XMen Legends II despite knowing it doesn't do anything and despite never using that combo in any other games. Also I've had days where I keep hitting the Lob button instead of the Shoot button in PES, so these things can be temporary) but I don't know that there's any specfic icon set that is ideal. Once that works flawlessly for some people will have problems with others.

Regards the GC controller, I've little experience of games but have found it harder to adjust to it's different layout. It takes a while for me to adjust to the different shapes, as my friends. If there's a red button we have to wonder which that is and look on the controller for the beginning until we're warmed up. Where it does work in when they show the four buttons with one solid and the other three semi-transparent, but that's true for other controllers too. eg. In Tekken it was easy to pick up button placements because they were shown as the group of four, showing spacial positions. In a throw like Square+Triangle (or whatever they are) you could see it was the top-left two buttons, and didn't need to know which buttons on the controller were labelled Square and Triangle.

For those memory games I think the difficulty anyone has with the icons are more a matter of personal preferences. I don't see that either XB or PS icons would make that any easier. What the games SHOULD do is either show the button positions or use the D-pad directions (though XB doesn't have separate buttons so this wouldn't work so well). It wasn't hard for me to learn Tekken's 10-Hit combos because the pattern of thumb-movements was very evident. If the games keep to just showing shapes, colours or what-have-you, there's going to be a mapping process involved that's much harder for most people to learn. But that sums up the future really. Games need to make sure they are as easy to access as possible. I don't think, with a stick and button layout, much more can be done to make things easier. Changing the layout to something different like GC might be good for new users, but doesn't work well for existing gamers, in the same way switching a touch-typist's QWERTY keyboard with a DVORAK keyboard will leave them confused. For a decade at least now gamers have been used to four buttons under the right thumb in a diamond layout and changing that is going to add an extra level of difficulty in learning new games (eg. ABCD in a square or Circle, Waves, Cross Star in a cursor-keys layout), so console desginers are rather stuck by legacy it seems to me. Changing the button colours, shapes, or any other attributes (soft, hard, clear and mirror...) isn't going to make much difference in learning a controller layout or learning which controllers work for which game.
 
We are "stuck" with a legacy design as you write. There is nothing inherently logical, general or "intuitive" (whatever that is) about the diamond layout.

If you put a counter on a joypad and looked at the readout after some time, I'm sure you would see that one of the buttons sees much more usage in general, and the others only getting an occasional press.
If you couple that knowledge with the human thumbs natural and easiest movement range, you get a layout that's pretty much identical to the GC pads.
 
I don't quite get what's so bad about the diamond layout... :???:

Code:
   A
[]   O
   X
       + (Thumb)

Holding the DS2, my thumb naturally is on the X and O most of the time since those buttons are exactly below my thumb as I move it onto either of these two buttons. Once I stretch my thumb, it reaches the other two buttons, yet at the same time while the tip of my thumb is over the [] and /\ button, I can easily access the X or the O button. This makes it very easy and simple to do combo's like for example in Tekken where you can press X + [] or O + /\ at the same time. By moving my thumb either to the left or right, I can easily access X + [] + /\ or X + O + /\ at the same time.

IMO the diamond layout allows for flexibility as making it easy to access various buttons at the same time. Just my 2 cents.
 
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