Predict: The Next Generation Console Tech

[Rangers]

Charlie at semiaccurate also said something to that effect


"WideIO is to slow, it is ~10Gbps or so. WideIO2 is not finalized yet, so I doubt it is close enough to show up in this console generation, those chips are really close to done, or closer as far as Xbox next is concerned.

-Charlie
"


so it look like the Next Xbox Chip is pretty close to being finalized.

Yeh well, Charlie said it was done months ago or something, and millions produced (the whole Oban thing).

He also predicted all kinds of whacky stuff for PS4 that wont come to pass.

In short, Charlie...

Edit: Although to be clear, I've pretty much shunned all this exotic tech people tend to want. I think it's all too early until proven otherwise.

Going back to the talk on the memory. I haven't heard what type it is. DDR4 was one of the thoughts I had when I first heard the amount. I've also speculated on 6GB of DDRx with a 2GB GDDR5 framebuffer. If that document is a true indication of MS' direction then I can see my speculated 8GB of DDR4 with a large eDRAM FB being the most likely case so far.

Thing is, for a cape verde class GPU, doesnt seem like they need EDRAM. On a 256 bus you can get enough BW from DDR4 to feed a Cape Verde. Around up to 100 GB/s vs 77GB/s for shipping HD7770.

 

[Love_In_Rio]

how are the FPU units in Jaguar?. Much worse than Bulldozer VMXs?. Enough to make SPUs job?.

 

[onQ]

how are the FPU units in Jaguar?. Much worse than Bulldozer VMXs?. Enough to make SPUs job?.

I remember reading something about Jaguar not having any FPU.

which has me wondering if there will be a FPU coprocessor or something. maybe that's what the DSPs are for.

 

[Kaotik]

Talking VRAM exclusively presuming split architecture.

Why on earth would you assume split architecture after all the praise XB360's unified got over PS3's split?

 

[(((interference)))]

There was a new hardware rumour about Orbis from a Dutch site posted on that semiaccurate thread:
http://translate.google.nl/translat...ver-de-playstation-4-inclusief-specificaties/

Seems to confirm what we've heard so far

 

[onQ]

There was a new hardware rumour from a Dutch site posted on that semiaccurate thread:
http://translate.google.nl/translat...ver-de-playstation-4-inclusief-specificaties/

no that's 2 weeks old

 

[Grall]

I remember reading something about Jaguar not having any FPU.

That can't be. If it doesn't have one it wouldn't be x86 compatible.

 

[Love_In_Rio]

That can't be. If it doesn't have one it wouldn't be x86 compatible.

Bobcat at least has a FPU unit.

 

[aaronspink]

aaronspink, you mentioned that we were underestimating what a 8GB platform could produce visually compared to a system with a faster GPU but less memory. Putting aside potentially large OS reserves, what specifically do you have in mind? It seems a lot of developers have been moving to virtual texturing which in theory should decrease the pressure. Just thinking out loud it seems the extra large memory would be great for asset variety, pre-caching content to reduce load times, having a host of standard features and services always on in the background, etc but what do you have in mind visually? It seems having more compute resources would be a big win visually. Can you be more specific?

Ps. 8GB UMA with some stacked memory for very fast bandwidth would be awesome! It would be so awesome it is NOT gonna happen

Voxels, more dynamic assets, etc. There are a lot of algorithms that require temporary space for structures. You can also get away with high precision intermediate structures as well. Less time spent effectively compressing and decompressing assets, etc. It all adds up. There is a decent amount of resources spent compressing assets down to they'll fit in increasingly relatively smaller footprints. In the end it basically means that the assets for a scene, both initial and intermediate can be much larger. At the end of the day, it is important to remember that more memory is never enough, people will fill it and be constrained by it.

and 8GB is reasonably cheap these days, you can by sub-$500 PCs with 8 GB of memory and those are sold for profit...

and edram is just very expensive stacked memory...

 

[aaronspink]

something that I noticed in the PS4 specs from the 2nd DevKits (?) it says 10X PPU & 10X RSX but left out the SPUs but said that the final system will be 10X the PS3 which has me wondering what's going to be added to make up for the SPUs?

Um, apparently sony finally admitted how useless the SPUs actually were...

 

[function]

and 8GB is reasonably cheap these days, you can by sub-$500 PCs with 8 GB of memory and those are sold for profit...

Not so many graphics cards with 8GB of GDDR5 though. Unless MS/Sony are going to go with split memory pools 8GB of memory seems unlikely, however nice it might be.

 

[Nesh]

Um, apparently sony finally admitted how useless the SPUs actually were...

They were?
AFAIK the full potential of the SPU's were bottlenecked by the available cache rather than being "useless".
I think they were very significant and elevated the PS3's performance in ways that would have been impossible if they went for a triple PPU solution like the 360

 

[antwan]

They were?
AFAIK the full potential of the SPU's were bottlenecked by the available cache rather than being "useless".
I think they were very significant and elevated the PS3's performance in ways that would have been impossible if they went for a triple PPU solution like the 360

offtopic: did you not get the memo? SPU's only allow for better artwork, they have nothing to do with elevating performance

I believe the original goals was to help with physics and other CPU intensive tasks. But developers (first party) chose to use them to get better graphics, lighting, shadows, and so on. Other than that it's a shame imo that it was only used for tasks like raycasting enemy fovs instead of for example really complex AI.
In the PS4 exclusive games could really benefit from the SPU's so my guess is that they will be present. Of course, multiplatform games will not feature things like heavy physics as development will probably still be xbox limited, as it was this generation.

edit:
come to think of it.. maybe it's more cost effective to leave the SPU's? The best selling titles are multiplatform anyway. Plus only really skilled developers can put them to use anyway so.. it's wasted silicon on R* and Activision I think

 

[itsmydamnation]

That can't be. If it doesn't have one it wouldn't be x86 compatible.

bobcat has 2 64bit SSE2 ALU's.

I just cant see sony using Jaguar,
AMD are expecting a 2 core Jaguar with GPU to go all the way down to 3.8 watts, to me that says perf per watt with a very low clock ceiling is the target. Then you think about some of the other stuff in bobcat, like only doing cache line read/write every second cycle, the Jaguar SOC's are upto 4 cores. It just doesn't fly to me.

the bulldozer FPU is already 4X128bit units, up the load/store from 256/128 to 384 or 512 /256 theres your "VMX units"( dont know if INT SIMD is usefull for games, if not copy paste the existing FP ALU's). Jaguar requires a complete new undertaking for wide, high throughput low latency FP.

unless jaguar is massively different to bobcat and this PS4 jaguar SOC is again very different to regular jaguar SOC so much so that it isn't jaguar anymore i just dont see anything other then steamroller ( assuming it is AMD CPU).

edit: if steamroller supports AVX 2 or gather then it makes even more sense then jaguar.

 

[ninzel]

Based on the PS4/720 rumors which one looks to be easiest to develop for so far?
Not comparing to current gen,but compared to each other.

 

[Prophecy2k]

Based on the PS4/720 rumors which one looks to be easiest to develop for so far?
Not comparing to current gen,but compared to each other.

As far as rumours go both have AMD HD7000 series GPUs (or better), and both have x86 CPUs, or Durango may have a PPC CPU.

The question of development ease becomes pretty irrelevant, as neither system is being designed in a way that creates potential development issues.

As with the current development state of being on PS360, it will comes down to the tools that Sony/MS make ready for launch. And I think many expect MS to have the edge there.

We'll have to wait and see. Way too early to tell.

 

[ninzel]

As far as rumours go both have AMD HD7000 series GPUs (or better), and both have x86 CPUs, or Durango may have a PPC CPU.

The question of development ease becomes pretty irrelevant, as neither system is being designed in a way that creates potential development issues.

As with the current development state of being on PS360, it will comes down to the tools that Sony/MS make ready for launch. And I think many expect MS to have the edge there.

We'll have to wait and see. Way too early to tell.

So..so far there is nothing indicating the presence of something like a repeat of the Cell?

 

[Prophecy2k]

So..so far there is nothing indicating the presence of something like a repeat of the Cell?

Everything rumoured so far points to CELL being dropped completely.

 

[anexanhume]

Why on earth would you assume split architecture after all the praise XB360's unified got over PS3's split?

If they're doing up to 8GB, a split architecture isn't an unreasonable concept. A 6/2 or 4/4 split would be ok if they wanted to do GDDR5 and DDR3/4. Devs may outgrow 2GB for VRAM, but with a healthy eDRAM it seems like not much of an issue.

So..so far there is nothing indicating the presence of something like a repeat of the Cell?

So yet another gen of PS backwards incompatibility.

 

[Kaotik]

If they're doing up to 8GB, a split architecture isn't an unreasonable concept. A 6/2 or 4/4 split would be ok if they wanted to do GDDR5 and DDR3/4. Devs may outgrow 2GB for VRAM, but with a healthy eDRAM it seems like not much of an issue.

I don't see 8GB as option, I'm quite sure the max we'll get is the max you can get with 2x8 GDDR5 chips in clamshell mode on 128bit bus, meaning 4GB on 2Gbit chips
Using PC-style [lot of ram on slow bus] isn't really an option, I believe.