As like the 360 S/APU, or as in a multi-chip-module? Knowing IBM, I see MCM has being very likely.
Predict: The Next Generation Console Tech
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As like the 360 S/APU, or as in a multi-chip-module? Knowing IBM, I see MCM has being very likely.
Blazkowicz
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Well I did a bit of research. GTA IV saw a small jump in FPS and L4D2 especially benefited from L3. I still just don't see the need for L3 for anything gaming related, I see it mostly being useful for practical stuff, and PC games are not practical but they are a good indicator of practical overall performance (I guess).
it really depends on what you run, if your only CPU intensive application is encoding lots of audio and video then the L3 is next to useless and the Pentium 4 is a good performer.
I agree that PC games are great stuff to know general performance from.
hence I don't believe much in "console CPUs optimised for gaming".
custom CPUs benefited more from the creative headroom and suffered less from the R&D costs in the past, vice-versa in the present and future.
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The Wii isn't a single chip design.
Even with the CPU no larger than 15mm2 at launch.
Besides, assuming that the die shot presented by IBM actually is the Wii U CPU, it doesn't look like there is much logic on it, a remarkably large proportion of the die seem to be taken up by memory. It looks like a four core design with oodles of cache. Interpreting die shots is a very risky business though, particularly since according to Ubisoft the developer boxes do not contain the final hardware, but at this point a single die CPU/GPU doesn't seem to fit the admittedly very sketchy descriptions.
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Nah - too irregular and too much logic. But I would still be wary of overinterpreting it.
I still haven't seen anything from IBM about just what cores the CPU is based on. It's unclear if that "Watson" comment is from Engadget or from within IBM. If it is from within IBM though, that would point to Power7. But an 8-core power7 is 567mm2 at 45nm SOI, and even cut in half it's a monster of a chip for the Wii U. Hell, even a fourth of a Power7 (is dual-core=multi-core?) would be just under 150mm2 which is 10 times larger than the Wii CPU on 90nm!
And I just can't see the Wii U needing for instance a decimal floating point unit in the core....
It would have to be a heavily modified version, not only in terms of off-chip communication, but also within the core itself.
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Actually, I thought it was too regular and hence was full of RAM.
It's a powerpc isa based core. Power7 is way out of line for a console.
I read some stuff about the POWER PC A2, it looks like the spiritual successor to Xenon (actually the same Chief engineer is in charge of the design), for you it could be a good match for next gen consoles needs?
for reference the two papers:
white paper
presentation
EDIT
By the way I found that DRAM should be available on IBM 32nm process at some point. Ms and Sony may have access to this tech depending on when they launch.
It's sad there is no implementation @ 32nm of Intel tri-gate tech, EDRAM and those transistors would do wonder it would remove a lot of power concerns that are raised when one speaks about many-core designs.
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Maybe could be some customised Powerpc A2.
http://www.realworldtech.com/beta/forums/index.cfm?action=detail&id=106885&threadid=106859&roomid=2
http://www.realworldtech.com/beta/forums/index.cfm?action=detail&id=106885&threadid=106859&roomid=2
Many believe it doesn't provide high enough single thread performance but Sebbbi doesn't seem concerned about lower single thread perfs. At least he is one of those coding for those chips so is opinion is relevant.
It's roughly 50%, which, if it's embedded DRAM, certainly reinforces the statement that IBM put quite a bit on the WiiU CPU. (Too little to be a RAM test die, as far as I have seen them.)
Tend to agree on that one. Decimal FP? Dual 64-bit FP and vector extension? Given the size of those cores and their baggage, I just can't see Nintendo using "multiple" Power7 cores.
Regardless, if Engadget is correct in that the die shot is the WiiU CPU, and it is a quad-core with "a lot" of EDRAM, well, then Nintendo has taken a giant stride in terms of CPU capability, regardless of what reasonable PPC core they use. Does make you wonder about the GPU and memory organization.
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You're right, it is unlikely power 7 (45nm),but maybe Nintendo has achieved some PPC very efficient(first use IBM Powerpc),but we can not forget in the past with their Gamecube 27MB not count 16MB A-system 81MB/sec only for sound) showing great results at very low cost.
Total die area excluding what I took to be I/O circuitry. However:
Link to press release on IBMs site where they link to the die shot where the wording certainly opens up the possibility that the die is test chip for eRAM rather than for the CPU as such.
Which is not how Engadget described it. I wish they could be really clear, this is just a waste of time.
The press release itself does make a couple of things clear though.
It explicitly states that "IBM plans to produce millions of chips for Nintendo featuring IBM Silicon on Insulator (SOI) technology at 45 nanometers (45 billionths of a meter). The custom-designed chips will be made at IBM's state-of-the-art 300mm semiconductor development and manufacturing facility in East Fishkill, N.Y "
Observe "plans to" so the actual CPU is not in production, and may not even be available as samples.
There is no mention of collaboration with AMD, or for that matter, Global foundries, which again hints strongly that we are dealing with separate CPU and GPU.
"All new" "Energy saving" "multi-core processor" is rather clear - no off the shelf part (well, that was a given), low power draw emphasized, three cores or more.
In conjunction with Ubisoft saying that the dev kits are not final hardware, I think it is almost a given that the boxes that people saw behind plexiglass at E3 did not contain early silicon versions of the Wii U. By the wording in AMDs press release, it could be there is no physical chip in existance from AMD either - not too surprising since CPU and GPU probably interface directly, so it doesn't pay off to have one ready long before the other for testing purposes. Which definitely opens up the possibility that the GPU will be made on GF or TSMC bulk processes a node down at 28nm.
Out of curiosity: could they be using a many core, enhanced Broadway (wii) based CPU
They could probably put 6-8 of those with extra clock speed, edram and VMXs and still be cheap, very power efficient and easy to to use. Certainly it would beat Xenon, no?
Well yes they could, but they have cores explicitly designed for embedded multicore use that are compatible in terms of ISA, so it doesn't seem necessary to hold on to the old core design. The new cores should provide sufficient single thread performance that emulating Broadway should be possible. Emulating the low latency RAM is probably harder than the CPU instructions. If they put 24MB of eDRAM on that CPU chip....
Very interesting and Sebbi is a master and you oberved very well your opinion is relevant,maybe they're right too... who knows but (correct me if I'm wrong) PPU cell and Xenon also did not have similar performance* counterparts( they dont needed for their game porposes..) power4/G5/970 under the same clock and they are very competitive for the launch date (wow PPU and Xenon talking "in the past "...).
*Table about instrution second (yeah i know its very esparse info but maybe have some value..)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instructions_per_second
About power4 and others PPC
http://archive.rootvg.net/column_risc.htm
Out of curiosity: could they be using a many core, enhanced Broadway (wii) based CPU
1 Core.Broadway wii cpu is basically same gamecube cpu (based powerpc 750CXe):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadway_(microprocessor)
6 or 8 of these cores at 3+GHz could be interesting,but PPU/Xenon as "relatives" (powerpc A2?) should be more plausible,because the ibm spoke explicitly about "watson" and probably have a similar instruction set (power4 to 7) *
*
http://www.realworldtech.com/beta/forums/index.cfm?action=detail&id=106885&threadid=106859&roomid=2
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Indeed it could. Microsofts Vejle 45nm chip being the prime example. But I think we would have had some indication from either IBMs or AMDs press releases if this was the case. They have been worded as very distinct.
But that is not proof of anything. The Wii U hardware remains a complete mystery even after its introduction to the public. And since what is in the hands of developers seemingly isn't the final product, even developer leaks are going to be suspect. If they indicated separate CPUs and GPUs for instance, well, that would be expected in preproduction devkits. Performance estimates would be useless - what would they refer to, exactly?
I don't think I can wring much more out of the information available, personally. The best hope is probably the upcoming Hot Chips conference.
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