Predict: The Next Generation Console Tech

[MfA]

They don't want to self fund launches and no one else wants to take all the risks without getting all of the gains.

Also at this point getting drivers right is a huge undertaking (you aren't just targeting the API, you are targeting a huge catalogue of poorly programmed games).

 

[Blazkowicz]

we do hear of them about DirectX, for GPU integrated into current and future Intel Atom.

 

[Rys]

SGX 5 series in NGP is DX9 when DX11 is out. There's been no mention of Rogue being DX11 compatible so people are expecting it not to be, I guess.

We're hiring DX11 driver engineers like crazy, probably for something

 

[TheD]

They won't before their 14nm process.
Nvidia has no foundry by the way.

I know Nvidia don't, but I doubt you can have an IC with 3D gates without the chip designer knowing how to (best) use them.

 

[TheD]

That's a bizarre question, when the Wii demonstrated that adding motion control proved to be enough to outclass its competitors in the market place in spite of barely improving on the graphics of its predecessor at all! The Kinect accessory alone have move millions of 360s, even though the graphics obviously didn't change.

Why people look to consoles selling for a few hundred bucks for technical innovation is beyond me. Their graphics is a means to an end, and that end is entertainment, and people care about graphics quality only insofar as it improves the entertainment value. While the goal posts certainly move with time, over time the trend still cannot be other than that the minutiae of graphics rendering will become increasingly less relevant to the entertainment provided.

Technology fetishists will have to look elsewhere for their kicks.

You can not do motion control again, it has been used and it would not set a product apart anymore (don't forget that the Wii is just about dead in the water, see how the far more powerful consoles now have motion controls and see how well they are doing with the only big thing setting them apart is power).

I can also not see any new gimmick that would work on next gen consoles, I doubt pricey controllers with a touchscreen but sans motion control will have the appeal of the Wiimote.

Graphics have a huge affect on immersion and they are still a far away off looking real, most games still have tons of LOD pop, low res textures, low poly counts, low res shadows and to top it all off systems still can not do games on a real scale.

It is no more free rides for console makers with gimmicks.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

DX levels are all fun and games, but what do you think they would miss feature wise?

I've no idea! Dunno what's planned for DX12. But looking at the programmability of SPUs, let's say Rogue ends up being DX10 (those DX11 engineers Rys says are being hired are there to make coffee, obviously), even then coupled with SPUs on a Cell, the SPUs would function ideally as geometry shaders and such. It'd be like taking all the more advanced programmability out of the GPU and consolidating them into generating vector processors, leaving the specialist hardware to cope with the drawing operations that SPUs aren't good at. That's perhaps what Sony had in mind with the visualiser, but SGX offers a fully scalable architecture that automatically distributes workload across cores, making their use very easy for the devs.

At this point I have to say this is my favourite idea of a system architecture to date. It sounds an ideal partnership of processors covering all bases and providing the flexibility required. I suppose there could be a balancing issue if you always pair one SPU to one SGX core, where you may have an excess or lack of central or graphics processing capacity at a given time, equivalent to discrete vertex and pixel shaders. But I think all the benefits outweigh the costs.

Hell, someone has to make it just to see if it works or not!

 

[Xenus]

Shifty now you are making me all excited about exotic configs of consoles again. Now we just need someone inside Sony to run with this wonderful idea.

 

[3dcgi]

Why people look to consoles selling for a few hundred bucks for technical innovation is beyond me.

Technical innovation often springs from dealing with reduced resources.

Ah, so what would be the advantages to using SGX rather than AMD or NVidia?

It would render in colour?

 

[Brad Grenz]

We're hiring DX11 driver engineers like crazy, probably for something

Windows 8 is on ARM, so there's that!

 

[Squilliam]

Our architecture is quite a bit different from ATI's at a low, fundamental level. It's right to say that moving data around the chip costs power, but when your architecture is fundamentally based on minimising data transport....

Ahh! Thanks!

It's always been viable, it's just whether it's more viable in the eyes of the vendor than someone else bidding for the design win.

I was hoping the reason why you were sniffing around this thread is because there was a console vendor sniffing around and that you were passing comment before you were bound by an NDA agreement...

Anyway it seems the only really exciting developments are coming from the handheld spaces rather than the desktop spaces and by extension that would make one of the most exciting potential console architectures PowerVR based, im with Shifty here that there could be a lot of potential for the architecture. I guess now it's either Sony for synergy with the SPEs and with Windows 8 for ARM with Microsoft or maybe Apple if they decide to compete.

I suspect a console deal with Microsoft would effectively make you guys the fourth major vendor for graphics processing units in the PC space, it would probably be very lucrative wouldn't it?

MOLLY is the codename for something really awesome

I like!

 

[Shifty Geezer]

ARM seems the other alternative to Cell. Design a new Cell-type processor only made of ARM cores (or an ARM PPU and some specialist SPU-style ARM number-crunching cores) and SGX cores, instead of SPUs. That'd be scalable, portable, and already fits every device. As both companies are UK companies and such a partnership would help grow their market share beyond mobiles, it strikes me as a very sound move to combat the likes of AMD's CGPUs. At least just an RnD agreement to explore the possibilities for starters. Such a processor could be used by MS in XB3 with Windows 8 Lite (they'd have to get a move on though!), and similarly ported to mobile devices. Sony would be better off combining SGX on Cell to maintain PS3 code compatibility, unless emulating RSX proves too tricky.

 

[borowki]

ARM seems the other alternative to Cell. Design a new Cell-type processor only made of ARM cores (or an ARM PPU and some specialist SPU-style ARM number-crunching cores) and SGX cores, instead of SPUs. That'd be scalable, portable, and already fits every device. As both companies are UK companies and such a partnership would help grow their market share beyond mobiles, it strikes me as a very sound move to combat the likes of AMD's CGPUs.

But ARM has their own GPU design, don't forget.

 

[Kaotik]

Shader Model 6 and/or DX12 comes most likely with the next generation chip from nvidia around 2013, not sure from AMD roadmap.

You mean the next-next generation? Since Kepler is expected in 2012.

One thing is quite sure though, it won't be out before Win8

 

[patsu]

But ARM has their own GPU design, don't forget.

What does NGP use ?

 

[Heinrich4]

ARM seems the other alternative to Cell. Design a new Cell-type processor only made of ARM cores (or an ARM PPU and some specialist SPU-style ARM number-crunching cores) and SGX cores, instead of SPUs. That'd be scalable, portable, and already fits every device. As both companies are UK companies and such a partnership would help grow their market share beyond mobiles, it strikes me as a very sound move to combat the likes of AMD's CGPUs. At least just an RnD agreement to explore the possibilities for starters. Such a processor could be used by MS in XB3 with Windows 8 Lite (they'd have to get a move on though!), and similarly ported to mobile devices. Sony would be better off combining SGX on Cell to maintain PS3 code compatibility, unless emulating RSX proves too tricky.

Good idea...ARM as PPU could be a very interesting option for ps4 and pages 5 and 6 * with "full Broadband Engine" with Visualizer gpu.


* http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7720982.pdf

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7720982.html

4 PPUs -> 4 ARMs A15 (3.5GHz)
16 SPUs-> for 4 each PPU(3.5GHz too)
4 Pixel Engines -> 4 SGX600+(like SGX543 MP4+ customized by sony for NGP... interview in gamesindustry.biz ) each PPU total: 16 cores at 800MHz

(may,18, 2010...Updated ... before the date the patent was August 22, 2002 ...)

 

[Sonic]

I wouldn't mind Intel using PowerVR graphics more in the desktop space. If any company can bring IMG back to the desktop space in a big way it is them. I seriously wonder why they haven't done it yet. It would be nice if Rogue is DX11 compatible as that would be a good choice for Intel in a low budget motherboard. Like, I wonder how an 8 core Rogue would pair up against whatever Llano has in it if they launched around the same time, or whatever current version AMD has.

Does PowerVR's TBDR still offer the same memory and bandwidth advantages as they used to compared to IMR's? Would Sony be able to go with slower memory? How much die size would a 16 core Rogue take up, power usage, etc?

 

[jonabbey]

Good idea...ARM as PPU could be a very interesting option for ps4 and pages 5 and 6 * with "full Broadband Engine" with Visualizer gpu.

Sorry, why? What makes ARM more interesting than using a Power architecture PPU?

 

[Barbarian]

Sorry, why? What makes ARM more interesting than using a Power architecture PPU?

Because we've seen what the Power architecture can do inside two consoles already and honestly its been nothing but disappointing ...

 

[jlippo]

You mean the next-next generation? Since Kepler is expected in 2012.

Nah, a proper next generation.
I only think generations trough NV naming, Fermi was NV60 and Kepler is the boost part NV65.
NV70 Maxwell will be the first GPU with new flexibility and features since Fermi.

 

[sebbbi]

Because we've seen what the Power architecture can do inside two consoles already and honestly its been nothing but disappointing ...

Disappointing?

These were the best chips available in 2005:
- Athlon X2, dual core, 2 hardware threads, 2 GHz
- Intel Pentium D (Pentium 4), dual core, 2 hardware threads (it didn't have hyper threading), 2 GHz
- Intel Pentium 4, single core, 2 hardware threads (hyper threading), 3.2 GHz
- PowerPC based, 3 cores, 6 hardware threads (SMT), 3.2 GHz

PowerPC had much lower power consumption, and equal (or higher) performance compared to the other options (when running optimized code). I think they made a really good pick.