NPD March 2009

Given the intensely competitive nature of the fps market today, is it really that far of a stretch to think that maybe KZ2 just isn't as good as other games? I see people grasping at every possibly straw other than that to explain the sales numbers, even on this forum. I mean poor marketing? Really? Is there any PS3 owner still alive that hasn't heard of Killzone? Truth be told I never heard of the first one, but the second one is impossible to avoid even if you tried. But if word of mouth is control issues, multi player issues and so so single player campaign, then are the sales numbers really a surprise irregardless of marketing, time released, box art, planet alignment, etc, etc?

Some points I want to make for the establishment of my own context though - and I do understand where your general frustration would lie by the way, don't want it to seem otherwise as we discuss!

Ok well firstly, like I mentioned, I myself know some folk whom hearing it from me was the first they'd heard about the game, and they are themselves PS3 owners. But that's neither here nor there per se. One of them owns R1 and R2 alone, and the other owns EoJ and Disgaea 3 alone, with an interest in Valkyria. Both use it primarily for BD.

There are better games than KZ2, absolutely. That said, remember I myself don't think that the games sales are bad at all - I think they're quite decent in the larger picture. But, they are not the world-changer some thought they would be. I was never one of those people, so I could just as readily be arguing the other side of this thing, it's just that I do think in terms of achieving maximum effect, Sony actually did some things that ultimately detracted rather than added to the sales.

The front-loaded hype was one of those in my book, and I think Christmas would have been a better fit across from Gears. Now we'll never know if I'm right on this or not because time marches on, but I just want to clarify that when I present these theories, it's not in the sense of a world in which KZ2 would have been reaching those multi-M sales numbers, just some missteps I felt occurred on Sony's part.
 
Quite surprised that Halo 3 is still breaking into the top 20.

I'm very happy to see both versions of SF4 still in there as it probably will enable Capcom to release other titles with the same treatment. I'm hoping for a Darkstalkers done in the same style. Even better, free dlc that will address my biggest complaint, on-line tournament mode.

KZ2 graphics by itself may not be the most pleasing because of the darkish environment, but with its smooth animation and lighting coupled with stellar AI, I thought it would have been a stronger title.
 
Bah, random/casual personal preferences like this means nothing. The choice of games you show them already limited the responses. They may just be picking out their favorite art style out of 10-20 choices ?
Plus, what portions of the game were shown? Most of KZ2 looks great, but there are a few levels that aren't very impressive (like the demo level).
 
Live pre-paid cards are consumables (basically required by all purchased goods on XBL ?). Would be a disaester if it doesn't chart.

No, there are online methods for adding the pre-paid points. The point of the cards would be gifting, not having credit card or not wanting to use a credit card online etc.
Also where is the 360 controller on the chart ? Does every 360 come with 2 controllers ? (Or perhaps box was purchased by lonely gamers, as gifts or as second/third consoles)
Should just be one controller per console unit.
 
COD4 is the big dog for shooters on PS3, and a lot of the people who would have purchased KZ2 play COD4. I'm sure once the word of mouth spread on the strange aiming model and unbalanced classes, that pretty much kept those players from migrating over to KZ2.

I'm sure I'm not the only person who, when asked, said that as a multiplayer experience COD4 > KZ2.
 
7 pages in and too much KZ2 discussion. Where's those pretty graphs you guys always put up with YTD and LTD numbers for me to look at? ;)

Anyway, about KZ2, I don't know about NA but over here I've been bombarded with KZ2 ads! They showed in-game graphics I believe and I was very much aware of coming to the PS3. In fact, personally as PC gamer, KZ2 is the only console game that makes me want to buy a console just for the graphics. So, assuming the European marketing isn't too far off from NA marketing of the game I'd say KZ2 didn't fail because of lack of marketing on the "real-world" or poor marketing. I otherwise have no ideas about why KZ2 didn't do better but after 7 pages of it I'm sure you guys probably listed every single possible factor. :devilish:

About the NPD numbers, I'm surprised there isn't more talk about the continued XBOX360, PS3 sales numbers differential: is it the economy vis-a-vis retail price difference? Does the Wii sales figures for March signal a need for a price drop? GTA: China Wars, another example of a strong brand failing on DS. How does that change the casuals vs gamers argument on Nintendo platforms?
 
7GTA: China Wars, another example of a strong brand failing on DS. How does that change the casuals vs gamers argument on Nintendo platforms?

Actually charting in 5, taking in acount that there is a much bigger demand for other kind of games (not the tipical GTA audience as there is many kinds and casuals) and it has been released in the midle of the month, it is quite good IMO.

Given a bigger and wider audience the harder it is to chart, but it shows there is a room for more mature games.

Madworld didnt did as good but I think it did good enought to show that there is room for such kind of game (or I hope soo).
 
Actually charting in 5, taking in acount that there is a much bigger demand for other kind of games (not the tipical GTA audience as there is many kinds and casuals) and it has been released in the midle of the month, it is quite good IMO.

That's just it, are you saying that unless your game is for the casual audience you shouldn't target Nintendo platforms? Would GTA:CW chart #1 if it was released on, say, PSP? How would the sales numbers compare? (heh, considering the piracy rate on PSP it would probably sell even less - okay, make it PS2 then).

Given a bigger and wider audience the harder it is to chart, but it shows there is a room for more mature games.

Agreed, but if you can only budget a game for 1 platform and you're not doing a casual game (casual in this sense being aligned with the console's casuals), why consider a Nintendo platform?
 
That's just it, are you saying that unless your game is for the casual audience you shouldn't target Nintendo platforms? Would GTA:CW chart #1 if it was released on, say, PSP? How would the sales numbers compare? (heh, considering the piracy rate on PSP it would probably sell even less - okay, make it PS2 then).

Well, it's sorta a 2D GTA, so it's hard to say. I do believe that the GTA games early in the PSP's lifecycle were million-sellers.
 
That's just it, are you saying that unless your game is for the casual audience you shouldn't target Nintendo platforms? Would GTA:CW chart #1 if it was released on, say, PSP? How would the sales numbers compare? (heh, considering the piracy rate on PSP it would probably sell even less - okay, make it PS2 then).

I think that in bussiness none should care about charts, only hard numbers and proffit, sure you can always think if you would be doing better on the other(s) console(s). If the game is selling relatively "litle" but doing a good proffit why not target DS again?

Chartz are great to know the popularity of a game but in bussines they dont make as much sense.

So they should target whatever gives them proffit, there is many ways to get it, I am sure that Wii will have some.

But yes I do think that games like GTA are better suited for 360/PS3 because they are really popular (ie they do sell a lot, really a lot) and there is much more people buing sandbox games (all of that in hard numbers, even if they dont chart, or chart low), so even if they have a much bigger production cost, historicaly there is much more sandbox games sold on 360/PS3 than Wii, it is a lot more probable that this one will sell good. On the other side if there is litle competition you have a chance of scoring big time (meybe a bigger a risk of failure too, but not as much money invested). Still that dont mean that a sandbox game will fail on Wii, just that a investimente as big as it is made in HD consoles can mean losses, probably there is a room for it, just not that many space so you will need a diferent strategy.


Agreed, but if you can only budget a game for 1 platform and you're not doing a casual game (casual in this sense being aligned with the console's casuals), why consider a Nintendo platform?

Ask high Voltage (the Conduit);), really they explain it quite well.

Anyway, 1)it cost less, 2)with so many consoles out there probably there is a market to any kind of games (even if not as big), as long as it is good, 3) less competition, 4) no market saturation, 5) it can be a lower risk, 6) no need to sell as many games to make proffit, 7) so many unexplored possibilitys make it a good place to get a big hit, 8) meybe an audience even more open to new ideas and not just to a new FPS (KZ2... ;)) ...

There is more ways of doing a game than investing a small (?:rolleyes::LOL:) fortune in it and hope it sells very well (like almost every HD game is doing). Look at L4D.
 
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Well, I was right about Madworld not doing very well. Little of the buzz was about how excited people were to play it (it was all, "Wow, a 'hardcore' title on Wii, that's great!", and the marketing focused on the violence. I don't think that's been a winning strategy since the original Mortal Kombat games.

:LOL: Actually 0 Punctation's Yahtzee made a similar point in his review.
 
Live pre-paid cards are consumables (basically required by all purchased goods on XBL ?). Would be a disaester if it doesn't chart. I am more surprised by sales of nunchucks. How many of these do people really need ? Also where is the 360 controller on the chart ? Does every 360 come with 2 controllers ? (Or perhaps box was purchased by lonely gamers, as gifts or as second/third consoles)


The only reason you bring this up is because you see the DS3 controller in the list, but no corresponding 360 controller. If Microsoft didn't have the subscription & point cards you might see the 360 controller in the top 10. As for Sony, they now have point cards, so it not showing in the Top 10 is telling in itself. Plus, had Sony shipped the DS3 with the launch system instead of the sixaxis, you might not have seen as many people purchasing it either. Though it could be all because Sony owners keep buying controllers once their non-replaceable batteries are shot. ;)

Tommy McClain
 
In case you are curious, that 2006 game was Kameo on 360. It's stone age to us, but it ranked well. Go figure :)

I would have put Kameo on the short list of pretty game, too. Rare did an amazing job there.

Quite surprised that Halo 3 is still breaking into the top 20.

Me, too. But I can understand why. Halo is a blast to play. The matches are quick. The control is simple. Weapons are amazingly well balanced. Maps are well thought out. It's just one of those games that's just fun to play. Split screen and MP are essential to both local and online...it's not one of those games where you feel lonely.
 
The only reason you bring this up is because you see the DS3 controller in the list, but no corresponding 360 controller. If Microsoft didn't have the subscription & point cards you might see the 360 controller in the top 10. As for Sony, they now have point cards, so it not showing in the Top 10 is telling in itself. Plus, had Sony shipped the DS3 with the launch system instead of the sixaxis, you might not have seen as many people purchasing it either. Though it could be all because Sony owners keep buying controllers once their non-replaceable batteries are shot. ;)

Tommy McClain

Yeah, I bought another DS3 because one of my original SIXAXIS' batteries was ridiculously poor.

At the same time I bought 3 new recharable 360 battery packs, rather than having to fork over the cash for a whole new controller...Sony should fix that next gen, it's ridiculous.
 
Bah, random/casual personal preferences like this means nothing. The choice of games you show them already limited the responses. They may just be picking out their favorite art style out of 10-20 choices ?

But that's the point of the whole ordeal, patsu. Casual gamers do not rate games based on technical merits, they solely base their decision on impressions (not technical knowledge). A focus group should reflect the appeal on the potential consumer. If you can get more appeal with better art instead of a list of different gfx than that's a valid road to pursue, IMO.
Mind you, I am not saying joker's "test" is scientifically valid focus group testing, but I am contending the fact that such test are worthless because people judge graphics based on the pedigree of their art style in addition to gfx.
 
Anyway, about KZ2, I don't know about NA but over here I've been bombarded with KZ2 ads! They showed in-game graphics I believe and I was very much aware of coming to the PS3. In fact, personally as PC gamer, KZ2 is the only console game that makes me want to buy a console just for the graphics. So, assuming the European marketing isn't too far off from NA marketing of the game I'd say KZ2 didn't fail because of lack of marketing on the "real-world" or poor marketing. I otherwise have no ideas about why KZ2 didn't do better but after 7 pages of it I'm sure you guys probably listed every single possible factor. :devilish:

Sorry to beat this horse a bit more, and sorry if I'm brining up old points. Honestly, I'm not all that surprised by the sales for KZ2. They are good, no question, but I feel they could have been better.

Judging by what I've seen on TV here, I haven't seen it advertised for anything other than it's graphics...
It just seems to me that it's been presented as something of a one trick pony.

Speaking in general, I'd really question such a strategy. In a world where the Wii is the dominant platform, and a large percentage of games are advertised using CGI cinematics - is an in-engine cinematic advert with almost entire emphasis on the graphics really a good strategy...?

Perhaps the most enlightening moment for me, was my flatmate saying (of the KZ2 demo) "well I guess it must play well [if it's so hyped], because it doesn't look very good"!. Apparently it was 'slimey' and had poor animation! So I don't know...
I think if you are trying to sell a game like KZ2 to a mass audience you need to appeal to the emotional / instinctive response - not a perceptual thing like graphics.
Some of the best things I've seen of KZ2 have been normal gameplay videos, intense and almost uncomfortable. The ads they have shown here have been anything but.
 
Yeah, Master Chief's the cowboy / Lone Ranger type, Marcus Fenix is like a trucker, both are heroes and the marketing campaigns have been centered on them. KZ2's main character is completely unknown, it may make the game a bit harder to sell.
Although... COD4 did not have a heroic main character either...
 
If Kameo was at number one, then it makes a bit of a mockery of the test itself anyway. Its obviously come down to art style/colour palette used rather than technical achievement.

How big was this foccs group anyway? I love when people come up anecodotal stuff like this to prove a hypothesis. It only lend support to one, often a tiny bit at that.
 
No, there are online methods for adding the pre-paid points. The point of the cards would be gifting, not having credit card or not wanting to use a credit card online etc.
Should just be one controller per console unit.

Yes, I think kids don't have credit cards or debit cards. I have also seen people who are uncomfortable with online credit card purchases.


The only reason you bring this up is because you see the DS3 controller in the list, but no corresponding 360 controller. If Microsoft didn't have the subscription & point cards you might see the 360 controller in the top 10.

No. Both Wii and PS3 have their controllers in the top 10 accessories. 360 should have sold proportionally equal number of controllers regardless of how their other accessories charted. They are independent.

As for Sony, they now have point cards, so it not showing in the Top 10 is telling in itself. Plus, had Sony shipped the DS3 with the launch system instead of the sixaxis, you might not have seen as many people purchasing it either. Though it could be all because Sony owners keep buying controllers once their non-replaceable batteries are shot. ;)

Sony has no subscription fees and a smaller base, naturally the pre-paid card sales are lower. In fact, I don't think the point cards are as widely available in the retail compared to XBL cards. If the average age of PS3 owners is older (17-24 based on that Nielson report ?), they may have access to a debit/credit card more readily too.

As for DS3 vs SIXAXIS... you have a point but a missing 360 controller in the chart is rather glaring. I don't know how many SIXAXIS is still being actively used. Mine has already broke down last year. There is another possible explanation. The list may be incorrect or just peculiar for this month. The numbers may look different in other months. In which case, I'd be interested to see MadWorld numbers.

It's also interesting that the 360 headset sold more than the 360 controller (I was told every 360 comes with a headset).

But that's the point of the whole ordeal, patsu. Casual gamers do not rate games based on technical merits, they solely base their decision on impressions (not technical knowledge). A focus group should reflect the appeal on the potential consumer. If you can get more appeal with better art instead of a list of different gfx than that's a valid road to pursue, IMO.
Mind you, I am not saying joker's "test" is scientifically valid focus group testing, but I am contending the fact that such test are worthless because people judge graphics based on the pedigree of their art style in addition to gfx.

Very true, but then again we need to sample enough to make any generalization. That's why I mentioned the result only represented personal preferences. An informal test is not going to tell you much. It also depends on the profile (e.g., age group) of the testers. The scene selection (e.g., a scary moment in RE5) may swing user opinion too if it's more (or less) engaging. Need more formal focus group testing to jump to any general conclusion.
 
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