Middle Generation Console Upgrade Discussion [Scorpio, 4Pro]

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MS was very successful in the xbox 360 era of funding huge ips. Gears , mass effect and so on. The deals they made were not huge costs. Gears reportedly cost them 10m to fund.
I look at game studios much like building a sports team. You've got good veterans and new and great upcoming rookies. If you draft well you can get great talent for cheap. Otherwise you trade off your stuff or pay money to pay for veterans.

No one denies that MS is sitting on some great IPs and studios, but they are like holding onto Michael jordan and Larry bird, but all sorts of great new players who are both younger and hungrier are out.

That's always a tough call too and it's no ones fault. Some players like most people, they just go do what they do for a pay cheque and go home. It happens. You've got a Vince Carter that won't play his heart out anymore; sometimes you invest thinking it's going to happen and it just doesn't.

So halo and gears, great stuff, sure but nothing like the pull they had during their rookie years. Mind you I think their games are great, personally like them h5 more than G4, but at the end of the day, when jobs are concerned, it's all about that bottom line revenue. And both studios are likely not meeting their targets as MS has expected them too
 
A generation is basically defined when the devs target it exclusively and don't worry about supporting cut down versions of their games for older machines.
Doesn't matter how powerful Scorpio is - if it's just a 4K/60 fps version of XB1 playing XB1 games, it'll be the same generation. Next gen will start with PS5. It might end up incorporating Scorpio if Scorpio is powerful enough to take the next-gen games, but the next-gen won't start with Scorpio and all games save maybe some MS exclusives will target PS4 and XB1 as base and just allow PC like improvements for the higher end versions of the same consoles.

Sorry but I don't see that anymore with back/forward compatibility based on a tweaked x86/GPU architecture. Until there's a radical paradigm shift in the PC market which then would be adopted for consoles we will get evolutionary console improvement. Cross generation compatibility demands/market size inertia are political limits which can/will change when somebody wants it.
 
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A generation is basically defined when the devs target it exclusively and don't worry about supporting cut down versions of their games for older machines.

I think you might need to re-try. Some devs didn't target XB1 or PS4 exclusively when they first shipped. They basically made up rez'd versions of 360 & PS3 games at first.

Tommy McClain
 
A generation is basically defined when the devs target it exclusively and don't worry about supporting cut down versions of their games for older machines.
Doesn't matter how powerful Scorpio is - if it's just a 4K/60 fps version of XB1 playing XB1 games, it'll be the same generation. Next gen will start with PS5. It might end up incorporating Scorpio if Scorpio is powerful enough to take the next-gen games, but the next-gen won't start with Scorpio and all games save maybe some MS exclusives will target PS4 and XB1 as base and just allow PC like improvements for the higher end versions of the same consoles.
Ok, if it's not a new generation for you because it is mandatory for that to happen to start afresh without looking back. But how would you call if then? Half life refresh? Mid life crisis brush up?

It can be a full-fledged new generation because the idea is to have universal bc on Xbox conoles, as I see it. I'd love to play Powerstar Golf and so on on Scorpio.

Frank O'Connor has talked about the new console:

Haha, although I probably "know" in that I might have seen it in a slide or something, it's literally not something I have time to think about now and I actually couldn't remember whatever specs I've been exposed to even if I was tortured. I literally couldn't leak or answer a question that went beyond "Can I do this? Does it support that? How many of these could it render?"

What I do remember is that it's beefier than I expected.
 
Could be completely meaningless. Overall though I'd put the chance of some sort of spec bump at over 50%. Even if it's 6.2 TF or something.
 
XB1 was going to use the power of the cloud, remember? Hasn't happened yet. Maybe one game is going to use it, and you posit that'll be a suitable solution for XB1 to implement more CPU demanding games? Furthermore, if the cloud can do that then Scorpio won't be needed, will it?!

Cloud compute (codename hammerhead?) has been used more than once for XB1, and in different ways. Feedback guarantees MS doesn't talk about it anymore, just like the other features. However the promoted games are clearly different and speak for themselves. Now that all the cloud services are similar, any system including Scorpio can leverage cloud compute going forward.
 
Don't assume what?

If the cloud works, there's no need for Zen in Scorpio to enable next-gen games. We also don't know if Cloud is happening. Is Crackdown going to be the first of a whole new generation of cloud-based games, or a one-off? You assume it's the shape of things to come...

Xbox. 3DO. PC Engine. Neo Geo. Atari Lynx. Game Gear. PSP. PS Vita. PS4 Pro versus PS4.

Xbox ? The ps2 was more powerful than the dreamcast which helped it succeed. . Neo geo was priced many times higher than its competition not a $100 like we are talking about. Lynx and game gear are portables as is psp and vita. Ps4 pro is ps4 is it not ?


I assume the furture is always moving towards us. The cloud is just one thing that will happen but it will happen. Its also an easy way to make up for the xbox one having a weak cpu if scorpio does not .


LOL what? are you actually blaming Sony for COD sales dropping off?
why is it ms's fault ?

Clusterfuck or not, its the biggest third party IP this gen. As for Uncharted 3, it sold 3-4 million and the 4th game sold 8,7 million. So it went from Gears of Wars 3 level to Halo 3 level
is it ? It sold more than fallout 4 ? IT sold more than madden ? What makes it the biggest third party ip of this gen ?
Except Halo 3 sold 8 million on the same install base as Xbox One currently, so it has nothing to do with Sony that Halo 5 sold less.

Halo 3 was the end of a trilogy while gears 4 is the start of one. We are also looking at a different market where digital is becoming a larger piece of the pie. So what did gears 4 really sell. I don't have the numbers and neither do you.


I dont even like the Souls games but looking at Bloodborne metacritic, i fail to see how you reached the conclusion that its "shit" and i dont think anyone expected it to sell 10 million copies.

Its a poor selling game.



Its been pointed out to you again and again that the most powerful console doesnt win every time

Not every time but a lot of times. PSX vs Saturn , PS2 vs Dreamcast , Xbox 360 vs ps3 , ps4 vs xbox one. Seems to have happened in every generation since the start of 3D actually.

Backwards compatability is amazing, Microsoft deserves all the credit in the world for it. But Play Anywhere is not currently something that will sell Scorpio, it doesnt even do a good job selling games in MS own PC store. Its a long term project, not something that will entice users next year, im not sure you are aware but many people dislike the windows store, they want the game on Steam

Its just another brick in the wall.


I look at game studios much like building a sports team. You've got good veterans and new and great upcoming rookies. If you draft well you can get great talent for cheap. Otherwise you trade off your stuff or pay money to pay for veterans.

No one denies that MS is sitting on some great IPs and studios, but they are like holding onto Michael jordan and Larry bird, but all sorts of great new players who are both younger and hungrier are out.

That's always a tough call too and it's no ones fault. Some players like most people, they just go do what they do for a pay cheque and go home. It happens. You've got a Vince Carter that won't play his heart out anymore; sometimes you invest thinking it's going to happen and it just doesn't.

So halo and gears, great stuff, sure but nothing like the pull they had during their rookie years. Mind you I think their games are great, personally like them h5 more than G4, but at the end of the day, when jobs are concerned, it's all about that bottom line revenue. And both studios are likely not meeting their targets as MS has expected them too

Except your ignoring all the new ips MS is working on. Sea of Theives , Recore , Scale bound, below , inside ,, cuphead , ashen , quatum break , astroneer. I am sure I am missing others they have put out during the generation. Its the same old tired argument that always happens.
 
Except your ignoring all the new ips MS is working on. Sea of Theives , Recore , Scale bound, below , inside ,, cuphead , ashen , quatum break , astroneer. I am sure I am missing others they have put out during the generation. Its the same old tired argument that always happens.
It's not, they've just not yet found a winner. I haven't dismissed their new titles, I've fully enjoyed Inside, QB, Cuphead, and of what I've played of Below, also great. I don't know what to say though, apparently it's not enough for people. I can't change other peoples mind's about it, its like saying they're great games, which they are, but for whatever reason they aren't shining, and I'm not sure why, but it needs to be addressed.
 
It's not, they've just not yet found a winner. I haven't dismissed their new titles, I've fully enjoyed Inside, QB, Cuphead, and of what I've played of Below, also great. I don't know what to say though, apparently it's not enough for people. I can't change other peoples mind's about it, its like saying they're great games, which they are, but for whatever reason they aren't shining, and I'm not sure why, but it needs to be addressed.
they just need to keep chugging along making them and good stuff will stick. My point is that they are making other games and not just relying on their big 3 or 4. Neither company has had much luck in making new ips this gen. Sony hasn't had anything that has stuck this gen either
 
It's not, they've just not yet found a winner. I haven't dismissed their new titles, I've fully enjoyed Inside, QB, Cuphead, and of what I've played of Below, also great. I don't know what to say though, apparently it's not enough for people. I can't change other peoples mind's about it, its like saying they're great games, which they are, but for whatever reason they aren't shining, and I'm not sure why, but it needs to be addressed.

I'm not sure how you are defining winner, IMO in many ways simply rounding out the library of available titles on a platform has value. That said I think it's laughable for eastmen to be critical of Bloodborne presumably because it didn't sell as well as other AAA titles while citing Recore as a promising new IP... My personal take is first party can provide a given platform with character; chest beating sales numbers have nothing to do with it for me personally and in that sense QB and Recore are nice additions.
 
I'm not sure how you are defining winner, IMO in many ways simply rounding out the library of available titles on a platform has value. That said I think it's laughable for eastmen to be critical of Bloodborne presumably because it didn't sell as well as other AAA titles while citing Recore as a promising new IP... My personal take is first party can provide a given platform with character; chest beating sales numbers have nothing to do with it for me personally and in that sense QB and Recore are nice additions.

I never said recore was a promising new ip. Just that it was a new ip that MS invested in. Just like quatum break wasn't a great new ip but MS did try there . There is more to the xbox than just gears , halo and forza
 
I never said recore was a promising new ip. Just that it was a new ip that MS invested in. Just like quatum break wasn't a great new ip but MS did try there . There is more to the xbox than just gears , halo and forza

you said "they shit out titles like Bloodborne" and when called on it you said it didn't sell well. It's clear what you are up to.....

Bloodborne is one of the highest rated games this generation however it's a niche title which was never going to appeal to tens of millions of consumers however it rounds out the library and gives some consumers another reason beyond power and third party titles to choose PS4 in the same way that Recore and QB help create interest in the XB1 platform.

There is a poor correlation between sales and the quality of software and depending on which point your trying to advance you seem to lean on that fact or attempt to knock it down...
 
you said "they shit out titles like Bloodborne" and when called on it you said it didn't sell well. It's clear what you are up to.....

Bloodborne is one of the highest rated games this generation however it's a niche title which was never going to appeal to tens of millions of consumers however it rounds out the library and gives some consumers another reason beyond power and third party titles to choose PS4 in the same way that Recore and QB help create interest in the XB1 platform.

There is a poor correlation between sales and the quality of software and depending on which point your trying to advance you seem to lean on that fact or attempt to knock it down...


Well except when its an MS game right ? Gears 4 sucked cause it sold worse than halo 3 did is whats been said in this thread. So obviously bloodborne selling worse than gears 4 means its a bad game.

If it was a great game it would have found an audience.
 
Well except when its an MS game right ? Gears 4 sucked cause it sold worse than halo 3 did is whats been said in this thread. So obviously bloodborne selling worse than gears 4 means its a bad game.

If it was a great game it would have found an audience.


What are you even going on about? Apparently you relive each anonymous comment about MS which isn't positive and use it as a basis for the next ridiculous analogy/logic failure. Halo and Gears like any other IP are going to struggle to compete with the success of previous outings with an IP, sometimes it works other times it struggles. Consumers want something new and are extremely fickle. My personal sense is as good as Halo or Gears may be just like COD any good IP has to be rested from time to time. Movies typically can it after the third one, Star Wars has been raking in money since 1977 in part because there have been substantial breaks between releases. This is in part why it's important for platform holders to round out offerings with titles like Recore and Bloodborne, it gives intersecting and diverting audiences additional reasons to invest in the hardware and I'll repeat sales are not strongly correlated with the quality of a title over time. Quality is extremely subjective with your biggest criteria being what platform it's released on, personally I rely on my opinion after I've played the game.
 
*AHEM* Can we please take the which IHV has better first party intellectual property to a different thread?
 
Sorry but I don't see that anymore with back/forward compatibility based on a tweaked x86/GPU architecture. Until there's a radical paradigm shift in the PC market which then would be adopted for consoles we will get evolutionary console improvement.
Think software. If the software is still the same, just with the graphics turned up, it's not a new generation. When the hardware enables the software to do new things (we're talking about Scorpio having a better CPU here enabling gameplay not possible on 7 Jaguar cores) and software targets it, you have a new gen.

I think you might need to re-try. Some devs didn't target XB1 or PS4 exclusively when they first shipped. They basically made up rez'd versions of 360 & PS3 games at first.
Of course there's a transition for economic reasons, although there were also plenty of next-gen exclusives of titles that couldn't be achieved on the old gen. After a year though, last-gen titles dry up to very few as new games simply won't run on the old machines. IS that likely for Scorpio?

Ok, if it's not a new generation for you because it is mandatory for that to happen to start afresh without looking back. But how would you call if then? Half life refresh? Mid life crisis brush up?
In terms of generations, I'm thinking software now. It doesn't matter how many hardware iterations there are - if the devs aren't writing new games to target and utilise to unique effect the next machines, it's not a generational advance in terms of the games we play. Just as a high end PC doesn't get a generation of better games than a low end PC, it just get the same games in better visual quality. Typically it's taken a hardware step to cause a software change, with consoles providing a clean break with a clear market shift to justify the leaving behind the old, limited hardware. Without such a step it's harder to delineate generational transitions.

If people want to call Scorpio next gen, go ahead. I'm not going to argue semantics and I've elsewhere argued on this board that the concept of hardware generations may be dead. Regards the CPU argument, even if Scorpio has a better CPU to target software not possible on current gen, there needs to be an economic reason for devs to target it and exclude the existing user base. The transition to this gen was clean, covered by both major players, and everyone knew it was coming, so devs could target it knowing they'd have a healthy install base and likely rapid growth for their new games. We now see current-gen titles selling a lot better than last gen. Scorpio isn't going to be ushering in a new era of games though - the economic reasoning isn't there. Perhaps it'll get a couple of exclusives, but it'll be as appealing to developers as high-end PC exclusives are. Only when there's a clear movement or transition in the market (ie. every console is replaced with a new one) will the software change.

Cloud compute (codename hammerhead?) has been used more than once for XB1, and in different ways.
Like?
However the promoted games are clearly different and speak for themselves.
Clearly not because I've never heard of them. :p There's nothing on XB1 showing more happening in a level than you'd expect save Crackdown, the poster child for cloud compute.
Now that all the cloud services are similar, any system including Scorpio can leverage cloud compute going forward.
If true, that makes the need for a more powerful CPU even more redundant - remember that's the argument here! Will Scorpio get Zen? It needs it to provide next-gen software, so yes. It doesn't need it as cloud can do that, so no. It doesn't need it as it isn't a new generation of console but a 4K XB1, so no.
 
to be clear upfront this isn't a reason for a more powerful cpu, but what else can be done with one.

as all x1's can be put into Dev mode, then this will also be the case for Scorpio.
would be nice if they released a uwp visual studio, k&m support so that indies and very small teams could actually use the machine as a dev environment. To produce Xbox and uwp games/apps.
profiles for base x1, mid pc(1080p), Scorpio when running in debug mode.
it may not be as good as a 1k Dev machine, but doable with powerful enough cpu.
 
Its too early to make any assumptions about mid gen refreshes. Pro has been out for like 2 months so we dont really have any real metrics to measure its success (or lack of)

We know that during the ~3 months before the Pro's release the Xbox S outsold the PS4 in the USA, and we know both Playstation models sold 6.2 million units between mid-November (Pro's launch) and end of December.
In anticipation for the Pro, fewer people bought Playstations. After the Pro was released, Sony sold consoles at one of their highest rates so far.
 
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