Middle Generation Console Upgrade Discussion [Scorpio, 4Pro]

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function said:
Could also be two HBM2 stacks at full speed, which would give you up to 16 GB of memory. This is actually what Greenland (the HPC APU) appears to use as its memory arrangement, going by leaked slides.
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Possible but neither Samsung or Hynix have actually offically announced the 8GB versions yet, Hynix will start production of 4GB version this quarter
 
Jubei said:
I dont see a significant perf/watt improvement for Vega, RX480 is 5,5 TF, 150 watts and 32 CUs, Vega 10 is 64 CU, 12 TF and 225 watts

Double the CUs and you have 11 TF, increase clockspeed and you have 12 TF, add in HBM2 and you get less power draw and much more bandwith.
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Your only looking at shader performance. Vega will have different performance improvements in other parts of the chip .
 
Silent_Buddha said:
Tom's Hardware shows an average power consumption of 164 watts when gaming (Metro: Last Light). It's one of the main reasons I didn't get one despite the attractive price point. Overclocking such that it reaches 6 TF also ups power consumption to >200 watts in most cases.

Speculation in the Vega thread also implies that things may have radically changed between Polaris and Vega.

Assuming the rumors are true, to reach 12 TFLOPs with 64 CUs, you either need to clock at 1.5 GHz or you need significantly more ALUs per CU. Both options would require significant changes in the architecture. Polaris currently struggles to reach 1.5 GHz and power consumption spikes up drastically to do so. The overclock result that had >200 watts above was with a 1.32 GHz clock.

There is no reason that it would be impossible for AMD to re-architect GCN (assuming it's still GCN) for greater perf/w similar to what Nvidia has done between generations.

Or not much has changed and we'll see Project Scorpio hit 200-250 watts or more.

Regards,
SB
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Go back and read the speculations on Polaris before we actually saw the final product, its best to keep expectations low because the hype is always more than reality, same with Vega. Its possible that Samsungs 14nm LPP process is simply not as good for high clock frequencies (Apple used only TSMC for their A10 wich features much higher clocks) so 1,5 GHz is probably attainable just by switching to TSMC wich Vega is rumoured to do, Scorpio SoC is definately TSMC

And you are still ignoring the difference HBM2 makes compared to the high frequency GDDR5 RX480 used. That has a significant effect on power draw

Nvidia has a significant R&D budget lead over AMD, dont expect similar level of results when funding is drastically different.
 
Clock for clock and with matched BW, Gen 4 Polaris is a few percent up over over Gen 3 Tonga:

http://www.bitsandchips.it/9-hardware/7334-tonga-vs-polaris-sfida-clock-to-clock

But it loses out to the older Gen 2 Hawaii in retail configuration (badly, at higher resolutions) presumably due to ROP and BW limitations. Even if Scorpio only had Gen 3 graphics like the 480, and even with the CPU taking a cut of BW, it should have more BW per flop than the RX 480, and I'm hoping for rather more fill-rate per flop too. I think the GPU component of Scorpio will have better outright performance and better per/watt than the 480.

In short: Scorpio better performance and better perf/watt than the 480, based on stuff.
 
Personally, I think MS have gone to far with the upgrades and will suffer when the next gen kicks in. Fine having 6TF I guess, but greatly improving the available memory and CPU will only back fire when they try and sell the 10TF Xbox Two. Whereas, Sony will be able to offer quite the upgrade over the pro. I sense a touch of desperation, and if it flops we might see MS sitting out a console gen to take stock.
 
function said:
Clock for clock and with matched BW, Gen 4 Polaris is a few percent up over over Gen 3 Tonga:

http://www.bitsandchips.it/9-hardware/7334-tonga-vs-polaris-sfida-clock-to-clock

But it loses out to the older Gen 2 Hawaii in retail configuration (badly, at higher resolutions) presumably due to ROP and BW limitations. Even if Scorpio only had Gen 3 graphics like the 480, and even with the CPU taking a cut of BW, it should have more BW per flop than the RX 480, and I'm hoping for rather more fill-rate per flop too. I think the GPU component of Scorpio will have better outright performance and better per/watt than the 480.

In short: Scorpio better performance and better perf/watt than the 480, based on stuff.
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Just thinking along the lines of this; They have been marketing this as a 4K native machine. With software to follow. They should be customizing the GPU to fit that spec.

Like you just said earlier that different AMD cards were performing worse and better depending on the resolution even as the architecture improved. Which makes sense since PC has a huge number of configurations you leave the manufacturer to ensure the card is flexible for the needs and price points of the customer.

But if they have the knowledge of 2 target resolutions, they should be able to customize the chip to hit those settings.

I think it would not be considered wishful thinking if MS was beefing up other parts of the card instead of looking purely at CUs and FLOPs.




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DJ12 said:
Personally, I think MS have gone to far with the upgrades and will suffer when the next gen kicks in. Fine having 6TF I guess, but greatly improving the available memory and CPU will only back fire when they try and sell the 10TF Xbox Two. Whereas, Sony will be able to offer quite the upgrade over the pro. I sense a touch of desperation, and if it flops we might see MS sitting out a console gen to take stock.
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By your reasoning, sony went too far with the ps4.
 
Esrever said:
By your reasoning, sony went too far with the ps4.
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Maybe if they had also more memory and a better CPU than Xbox one.

It's a fact with the extra memory and better CPU Scorpio is going to be a lot closer to the next Xbox than pro is to the next playstation
 
iroboto said:
Just thinking along the lines of this; They have been marketing this as a 4K native machine. With software to follow. They should be customizing the GPU to fit that spec.

Like you just said earlier that different AMD cards were performing worse and better depending on the resolution even as ten architecture improved. Which makes sense since PC has a huge number of configurations you leave the manufacturer to ensure the card is flexible for the needs and price points of the customer.

But if they have the knowledge of 2 target resolutions, they should be able to customize the chip to hit those settings.

I think it would not be considered wishful
thinking if MS was beefing up other parts of the card instead of looking purely at CUs and FLOPs.
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That's a really good point. Where Gen2 390X beats Gen 4 480 is at 1440p. And where it starts to thrash it is at 4K.

So if MS *are* serious about their "native 4K goal" then they need more BW than the 480 - which they will have to at least some extent (along with a wider bus for more concurrent operations) - and more ROPs. And the way things stand currently, the next step up is 64 ROPs. And given that they'll probably be clocking lower than the 480, they really will need 64 ROPs rather than 32.
 
DJ12 said:
Maybe if they had also more memory and a better CPU than Xbox one.

It's a fact with the extra memory and better CPU Scorpio is going to be a lot closer to the next Xbox than pro is to the next playstation
Click to expand...
CPU is pure speculation at this point.
 
DJ12 said:
Maybe if they had also more memory and a better CPU than Xbox one.

It's a fact with the extra memory and better CPU Scorpio is going to be a lot closer to the next Xbox than pro is to the next playstation
Click to expand...
first time you was comparing Xbox to Xbox, ps to ps.
then ps to Xbox.
well then you can also compare next ps to Scorpio and say it won't be a big enough difference also.
 
mpg1 said:
uhhh hasn't AMD already confirmed they had the design win for project scorpio?

not sure what The Verge is getting at there

if anything it's Microsoft simply promoting a large first party release on pc and windows store
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Lol. They did indirectly, I'm just playing around.
I think it's MS trying to be impartial. Contract went to AMD, and they'll do free game bundles with nvidia.


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