Middle Generation Console Upgrade Discussion [Scorpio, 4Pro]

[mrcorbo]

FWIW, AMD have specifically said that Zen is intended to scale down to embedded and low-power designs. Whether any of those designs would include 8 cores, though? <shrug>

Unless the Slim is Zen based then I doubt Scorpio will be. The cheapest design is to simply take the apu of the slim and slap an external gpu into the box. U can grab an off the gpu shelf part and minimize design and production costs.

It's a mid gen part so I doubt MS wants to do a bunch of engineering to make every thing to play nice.

According to MS, Scorpio contains an SoC with 6TF of compute capablity.

 

[iroboto]

FWIW, AMD have specifically said that Zen is intended to scale down to embedded and low-power designs. Whether any of those designs would include 8 cores, though? <shrug>



According to MS, Scorpio contains an SoC with 6TF of compute capablity.

Just to confirm technical terms here, is this referring to the aggregate compute power of the APU? Or just the GPU portion of it? The reason I ask is because I'm not sure whether compute meant compute units or compute as in compute as a general term.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Rangers]

AMD don't seem to have the resources to develop parallel CPU architectures any more, and have thrown everything into Zen.

Doesn't change the (possible?) truth of your statement but AMD is enjoying a resurgence. RX 480 has stolen more of Nvidia's thunder than I ever thought possible, they can only go up in the CPU space with Zen (certainly cant go down). The stock had gone from a low of $1.62 last year to $5.45 recently, over a 300% rise. The test will be if it lasts of course, but AMD execs must be feeling positive for the first time in forever.

FWIW in the various console discussions.

 

[Proelite]

wouldn't be that configuration a little compromised? I mean, for 4k games and 4k res textures, 4GB aren't enough

It's 20GB in conjunction with DDR4 ram.

Think of the memory setup as a ultra XB1, where the HBM2 is the "substitute for Esram". 4GB of Esram with > double the bandwith,

 

[AlNom]

Just to confirm technical terms here, is this referring to the aggregate compute power of the APU? Or just the GPU portion of it? The reason I ask is because I'm not sure whether compute meant compute units or compute as in compute as a general term.

One of the people in the scorpio announcement video specifically refers to the GPU (late in the video).

plonk

 

[Jay]

wouldn't be that configuration a little compromised? I mean, for 4k games and 4k res textures, 4GB aren't enough

it would be more like the xo setup than a graphics card, store g-buffers etc in it.

 

[Cyan]

It's 20GB in conjunction with DDR4 ram.

Think of the memory setup as a ultra XB1, where the HBM2 is the "substitute for Esram". 4GB of Esram with > double the bandwith,

it would be more like the xo setup than a graphics card, store g-buffers etc in it.

I wonder why 4GB and not something like 512MB for a 4K buffer then....it seems as if they are squandering ram...

In my opinion, such lavishness, splurge and flittering away is just good news though, it means they are going all crazy

 

[Jay]

I wonder why 4GB and not something like 512MB for a 4K buffer then....it seems as if they are squandering ram...

In my opinion, such lavishness, splurge and flittering away is just good news though, it means they are going all crazy

wonder what the smallest hbm size available is, also may not be much difference in overall cost at small sizes?

going with 2 or 4gb, may also be looking toward the future. 4gb does sounds excessive to me though.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I wonder why 4GB and not something like 512MB for a 4K buffer then....it seems as if they are squandering ram...

In my opinion, such lavishness, splurge and flittering away is just good news though, it means they are going all crazy

It's a FANtasy by a FANatic. In other words, wishful thinking. Not something Microsoft are likely planning.

Regards,
SB

 

[Pixel]

As much crap as Chris received for this quote, I can tell you the guy is brilliant and while he may not have chosen the best adjective, I believe he was referring to HDR support in where all current and previous gen games had to down sample HDR framebuffers to RGB color space for display. But as is always the case, people took a different more literal interpretation of a blurb to discredit the info as some phony marketing speak.

I quoted that so it would be easier for people to locate where in the video it was said. I assumed he was simply speaking in terms that would be easier for the masses to relate to, its e3 afterall not GDC.

 

[goonergaz]

Why would zen be to big and expensive ? Look at intels line of cpus. The cpu cores are tiny. Zen should be the same.

I doubt we will get less than 8 physical cores and 16 threads.

I also think the 6tflop is just marketing speak , the truth will be that its some where above 6tflops but clocks are not finalized nor are disabled cu's so they wont nail it down yet

Also DDR 4 at a 100gigs bandwidth isn't enough. If they do HBM 2 they wont go with less than 8 gigs. I think its just cheaper for them go with gdrx and call it a day

If it were marketing speak (and remember - we're talking MS here, the master of spin doctors) then they would have said "over 6TF" - it could be 6.01TF but it'd be true. As such I think it might even be a little under 6TF because, let's face it - if it's 5.8TF or above (just plucking a figure from air) then it's essentially 6TF so no lie.

 

[eastmen]

If it were marketing speak (and remember - we're talking MS here, the master of spin doctors) then they would have said "over 6TF" - it could be 6.01TF but it'd be true. As such I think it might even be a little under 6TF because, let's face it - if it's 5.8TF or above (just plucking a figure from air) then it's essentially 6TF so no lie.

or its over a year away and they don't know final clock speeds or yields on the chips . So it could be 6.2 tflops or 6.8 tflops . But 6tflops is the floor for them.

 

[goonergaz]

or its over a year away and they don't know final clock speeds or yields on the chips . So it could be 6.2 tflops or 6.8 tflops . But 6tflops is the floor for them.

So again, why not say 'over 6TF'. I understand there are some unknowns as it's so far away, but clearly MS wanted to wet pants so it would have sounded better.

 

[function]

wouldn't be that configuration a little compromised? I mean, for 4k games and 4k res textures, 4GB aren't enough

BW needed for texturing is actually a lot lower than for frame buffer operations, and is basically just read instead of read/write. And you'd only need a few tens of MB of textures to texture the frame at hand. The trouble comes when you won't/can't stream and so you have to store all textures for a large area at once. In this case storing in the main ram and moving to HBM as required should work out fine. If DX wasn't so bad at this, the PCI-E bus on PC would be fine for this.

wonder what the smallest hbm size available is, also may not be much difference in overall cost at small sizes?

going with 2 or 4gb, may also be looking toward the future. 4gb does sounds excessive to me though.

1GB is the floor for HBM1 so you'd need two stacks, while HBM2 starts at 2GB per stack with 128, 204 or 256 GB/s modes available. Once you're paying for the interposer and the stacking 4GB may end up being better value per GB than 2 an so be more attractive. There's also the possibility that having more layers in the stack keeps the memory controller busier and allows it to hit higher effective BW (where it should already be better than GDDR5) and be more efficient.

So again, why not say 'over 6TF'. I understand there are some unknowns as it's so far away, but clearly MS wanted to wet pants so it would have sounded better.

I think MS would be right to make sure they don't say 6TF and then only hit 5.98 and face wrath. The way AMD talk about compute units I wouldn't be surprised if the figure was for CPU and GPU combined. Though again, MS may want to be wary about any perceived misdirection.

 

[Jay]

1GB is the floor for HBM1 so you'd need two stacks, while HBM2 starts at 2GB per stack with 128, 204 or 256 GB/s modes available. Once you're paying for the interposer and the stacking 4GB may end up being better value per GB than 2 an so be more attractive. There's also the possibility that having more layers in the stack keeps the memory controller busier and allows it to hit higher effective BW (where it should already be better than GDDR5) and be more efficient.

Per GB may be cheaper but actual cost will still be higher. Companies are always trying to save pennies.

Has HBM1 been affectively already superseded by HBM2?

Lots of memory is nice but, already talking about 12GB ddr4. for what it would be used for I would think that 1 or 2 GB HBM would be enough.

 

[liolio]

or its over a year away and they don't know final clock speeds or yields on the chips . So it could be 6.2 tflops or 6.8 tflops . But 6tflops is the floor for them.

So it starts more than an year ahead of release, I was over optimistic. I'm on a diet, I will try to enjoy the show nonetheless, no popcorn for me.

 

[iroboto]

So again, why not say 'over 6TF'. I understand there are some unknowns as it's so far away, but clearly MS wanted to wet pants so it would have sounded better.

Because it's functionally safer to announce their baseline than it is to announce their theoretical upper end.

Masters of spin as you say wouldn't make this mistake after the number of mistakes they made.

Come in conservative, and gain double the credit when you arrive above.

Everyone already knows it's more powerful than Neo. Neo isn't announced. But MS specs are already out. Laymans have 1.5 years for anyone to figure out these spec differences. The Difference between Neo and Scorpio should be in the TF range, not the GFlop range so why bother empahsizing a minuscule difference. MS needs good will on their side and MS took all the steps improve their image this year.

There are likely some associative reasons why Sony bailed on their Neo announcement at E3. I mean no one thought it curious how they ended the conference that they already trailered at the beginning?

They were clearly filling a spot meant for a climatic ending to a well made conference.

For whatever reason Sony pulled it. Don't know why but that was definitely Neo's announcement spot IMO.

Edit: I know some people say it's a game. But what's going to be bigger exclusively than what they already announced? Can't be a third party, that doesn't make any sense.

Last of Us 2: maybe, I can't think of another titles that they could cap it off on. And they've ended announcements like UC4 with just a trailer. If Kojima can just walk out with a theatrical trailer no reason TLOU couldn't. A new title wouldn't be there, they would have swapped GOW to be the ending then, cause there is no way a new exclusive of a new IP is going to pass GOW. Crash was already announced.

They had to fill a 5 minute gap. You've got this wonderful orchestra. I dunno, I just don't see how it could have been anything else.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Joed]

The lowest resolution a current gen console can go is 720p and 30fps without some severe backlash, and Quantum Break runs at that resolution. I have some questions about this;

- Does that mean Scorpio will basically run games at QB's fidelity in a higher resolution?
- Could Devs run games in a sub-hd resolution on the X1 without backlash to benefit the Scorpio version?
- For assets to be downgraded for compatibility on X1, wouldn't they need to make an entirely new game?
- At 4K, what kind of games could we expect to run reasonably at that resolution? (I'm guessing something like Shadow of Mordor's fidelity, not Quantum Break or Ryse)
- Will 1080p/60fps still provide a significant step-up in visuals from the high-end games of current gen (UC4, The Order 1886, QB etc.)?

Thanks to all.

 

[iroboto]

The lowest resolution a current gen console can go is 720p and 30fps without some severe backlash, and Quantum Break runs at that resolution. I have some questions about this;

- Does that mean Scorpio will basically run games at QB's fidelity in a higher resolution?
- Could Devs run games in a sub-hd resolution on the X1 without backlash to benefit the Scorpio version?
- For assets to be downgraded for compatibility on X1, wouldn't they need to make an entirely new game?
- At 4K, what kind of games could we expect to run reasonably at that resolution? (I'm guessing something like Shadow of Mordor's fidelity, not Quantum Break or Ryse)
- Will 1080p/60fps still provide a significant step-up in visuals from the high-end games of current gen (UC4, The Order 1886, QB etc.)?

Thanks to all.

Only a few developers had access to Scorpio prior to the E3 announcement. I imagine the discussion of how it will all work with developers is happening now and will be for the next year.

I don't think we will be getting these types of details until around next e3 where price and release will be announced.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MrFox]

Theories including HBM and/or DDR4 would mean the detailed render of the motherboard is completely fake, while the board they have shown makes a lot of sense and has all the credible details. What strategic advantage would they gain from doing this? If it was using HBM in any way, it would be a big PR win to show it, or say it. First console using an interposer.

I think it's a great B3D tradition, the search for the Secret Sauce!

Spoiler