Middle Generation Console Upgrade Discussion [Scorpio, 4Pro]

Discussion in 'Console Industry' started by mpg1, May 25, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. goonergaz

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,104
    Likes Received:
    743
    Looks amazing, and what with Horizon has me salivating over RDR2! That might be the one title to really show me why I need a scorpio! I know what you mean about having titles 'to hand' - it's much like the PS plus scenario, you buy every game (even those you've no intention on playing - 'just in case')...but the reality is I simply never have the time to play anything other than current titles - heck even then I have a backlog including GTA V, Battlefield 1, MGS V, RE7 and a load of VR games! lol
     
    AzBat likes this.
  2. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
    Legend Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2014
    Messages:
    7,905
    Likes Received:
    6,188
    Indeed, some might say that the generationless method is definitely not clean cut
    ...
    ...
    :lol:

    True, but to their defense, if XBOX had always been defined forever as a generationless platform, they would never had left X86 to powerPC. It's entirely possible they would never had left nvidia either. But some lack of real foresight and poor contract negotiation made this an impossibility for them. I think with moving back to x86/x64, they have an opportunity starting now to make that clean break.

    Certainly. I think if we look at all sorts of potential scenarios, you can cut up a whole bunch a stuff a whole bunch of ways and you'd be right. But often enough, we do see that usage will follow the path of least resistance, and I'm going to imply that using appropriate technology for a solution will likely be the norm, as opposed to the exception. So, in this case, why waste 1.8TF of GPU on physics, when you can leverage the technology built for Crackdown 3 for instance. If this is undoubtedly the way things move forward, as a developer they will make choices necessary for their game to run on as many devices as possible, and in this situation where you have a weaker console, if the games going forward are going to be that complex, why not continue on this path, and let the heavy lifting of graphics be handled on the client side only. I mean, it's too early to know, I'm just putting out an example, I need to see Crackdown 3 reviewed by DF, or myself personally to see how robust this online solution is - but at least I know that there could be some flexibility in getting over a brute force issue. I know it's not as great as everything running locally. That will always be the ideal situation. But I'm open to discover what can be done in this field before I totally cross it off. Crackdown has quite a burden on it's back.
     
    AzBat likes this.
  3. AzBat

    AzBat Agent of the Bat
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2002
    Messages:
    5,951
    Likes Received:
    1,746
    Location:
    Alma, AR
    This is where game sharing comes in handy. You might not play them all, but I'm sure there are more than enough titles for somebody else to pick from. ;)

    BTW, only 48% of my 170 titles in Read to Install are 360 games. And right now only Red Dead Redemption is my only backward compatible game currently installed, but that's because I'm still just using a 500gb drive. Got a 4tb external coming late this week. Hopefully it won't get full too quick. LOL

    Tommy McClain
     
    BRiT likes this.
  4. mosen

    Regular

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2013
    Messages:
    452
    Likes Received:
    152
    You seems to be confused (Sony offer with MS). All Xbox One consoles support 360 BC. There is no cheaper option here, all XB1 consoles are the same. People who have PS4/Pro already may like to buy a better hardware from different company to enjoy it's exclusive games/services (including BC) or new hardware features.

    BC/FC are important features to many people and it really don't matter where you want to play BC games. If you are after best experience (XB1 and 360 games, e.g. you want to play Halo 5 at 1080p/60fps all the time) then you will buy Scorpio and if you are okay with lower resolution or frame rate you can buy XB1. People will chose and even if they chose XB1 for now they always can take the advantage of newer/better hardware later at lower price.
     
    #3424 mosen, Mar 19, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
    Shoujoboy and RootKit like this.
  5. Jay

    Jay
    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2013
    Messages:
    1,945
    Likes Received:
    1,091
    I myself has made a very similar observation.
    people have said that PlayStation owners are to invested into the ecosystem with digital games etc to swap to another platform.
    then say bc/compatibility isn't that important.
    if it's not that important what's stopping them from switching?

    whether it's used a lot or not, it could be a comfort thing, feeling that investment isn't lost even if it's not being used.
    I don't know, but it seems that it's becoming more important than before.
    maybe because unlike before, if you change platforms you could sell your games and recoup some of the investment, now with digital your stuck with them?
     
  6. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
    Legend Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2014
    Messages:
    7,905
    Likes Received:
    6,188
    This is a good observation counter point. However expanding the scope of the term investment to mean more than just financial:

    The investment doesn't need to be the games necessarily, but the nostalgia, the familiarity, the investment into the time played into games which will have sequels, their friends that they have made online, and any hardware they may have purchased, their achievements/online record, and any persona/reputation they may have built over the years.
     
    goonergaz and Jay like this.
  7. goonergaz

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,104
    Likes Received:
    743
    Exclusives, something lacking on the XBox. And the price. Scorpio does nothing to fix those issues.
     
  8. Jay

    Jay
    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2013
    Messages:
    1,945
    Likes Received:
    1,091
    if your talking console exclusives, a lot of people think PlayStation will no longer have any either, with Ps now having ps4 games.
    not a conversation I'm willing to get into, or how important exclusives truly are anymore.
     
    Shoujoboy, RootKit and mosen like this.
  9. goonergaz

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,104
    Likes Received:
    743
    You know PSnow will not have all titles and the service is streaming (so lag, at 720p also) - totally counters the reasoning behind why you're suggesting people will buy Scorpio (best pixels evah).

    You also know that exclusives will be a factor so while you may not want to discuss (and I can understand being as it'll be a losing battle) it will be a consideration.

    Another reason people won't switch mid gen is they play games like CoD?Battlefield/Battlefront/etc and have games they've invested a lot of time in and then there's friends they play online with, let alone a mass of digital media they've built up...but ignore all that, best pixels evah @ $550 and starting all over until next gen in 2/3 years FTW
     
    #3429 goonergaz, Mar 19, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
  10. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
    Legend Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2014
    Messages:
    7,905
    Likes Received:
    6,188
    There is a definite gray area that ultimately each purchaser (whom purchases for themself) will evaluate with quite a bit of criteria, and it's never one or two (big) factors but often a multitude of factors as well. And each purchaser would also rank what factors are important to them.

    TLDR; not sure if it's worth the time to debate these factors :) as no single response could ever encapsulate every individual.

    Imagine how silly this may sound; at many points in my life I would refuse to ever own or drive a honda because I did not want to be associate with certain groups/images. So I never bought one. So weird. But I imagine such a case could also exist. Some people may refuse to buy XBO simply because it's MS, or that it's American.

    But even though it may be true it's not a good reason to use as a discussion point ;)
     
    #3430 iroboto, Mar 19, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
  11. Silent_Buddha

    Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    16,157
    Likes Received:
    5,094
    You'll note that in the post you responded to, I had specifically said that for this to include PS3/X360, they'd have had to make a change to x86 at the time. That would have been a good thing as the IBM PC was nowhere near as capable as x86 CPUs of the time. And the Cell processor while very power at specific tasks was very difficult to use well.

    First, to address the bolded. We already have games that run at settings (both graphically and WRT to phsyics) that scale from hardware more powerful than Project Scorpio to hardware that is less powerful than XBO. Games, have for years included options that enable or disable both GPU intensive rendering options and CPU intensive options (level of physics simulation, number of AI entities, etc.). Games for years have also included toggles for settings that use technology that is incompatible with some hardware (tessellation, CUDA effects, lots of proprietary NVidia effects, etc.). These games also exist on consoles, but those options aren't exposed on consoles.

    So, sure, coming from a console viewpoint what you said makes sense.

    Coming from PC, there is no historical precedent for that. Especially if a developer was either exclusive to PC or developed with PC as a primary development platform. You can take advantage of new technology advances WRT GPU rendering without also dropping support for hardware that doesn't support those GPU rendering features.

    Yes, some developer's voluntarily limited their engine in order to reach the widest range of hardware possible. Blizzard is famous for deliberately not using the latest advances in technology. OTOH, companies like CD Projeckt Red (prior to starting console development) did not. In fact, prior to the Witcher 3, they had always released a technology patch ~1 or so years after the release of their games specifically to take advantage of newer technology advances that did not exist when they were developing their games (Witcher 1 and 2). Crytek (yes, them again), always targeted technology that was the lastest they could.

    You saw things like that with the Dx8 -> Dx9 transition which was represented the largest divergence in how 3D rendering was accomplished on both a hardware and software level. Within the first year of the introduction of Dx9 you saw developers attempting to take advantage of it using hardware capabilities that did not exist on Dx8.1 hardware. Within 2 years you started to see engines which started development either when the hardware was released or prior to the hardware being released focused on Dx9 as the primary rendering method but including a Dx8 rendering path.

    Dx10.1 saw implementation within the first year by some developer's despite less than 5% of the market having Dx10.1 cards.

    What's most interesting is that from a development standpoint, the closest thing to a console like generational break in the PC world, also results in lower adoption of newer hardware features and software APIs within games. Dx10 is the poster child for this. Dx10 required Vista, meaning it completely broken compatibility the previous generation. Vista adoption was low, again similar to the start of a new console generation. Dx10 ended up largely ignored. Dx12 is facing a similar barrier in that it is limited to Windows 10 which on Steam currently stands at ~51% of the Windows gaming market install base. I'd say that's roughly analogous to where we stand with active users of PS3/X360 to PS4/XBO. If Dx10 (Dx11 to a lesser extent) and now Dx12 didn't face those barriers, you'd have seen them rapidly become the primary rendering API that games engines are based on, with the ability to downscale rendering for lower API levels. Interestingly Vulkan may change all this as it supports prior generations of Windows.

    Here's the thing though. Console users have been indoctrinated to think that the breaking of generations is the best thing because that's all they know. Developers don't like it. Publishers don't like it. PC users in general don't understand it (OK, I can't enable X feature, but the game still runs).

    Just to reiterate. The introduction of Dx9 represented a far larger change in hardware GPU capabilities and software development API that is unlikely to exist with the idea of a rolling generation of console hardware. And even that didn't stop Dx8 hardware from being supported for years after Dx9 hardware came into being. It also didn't prevent developers from pushing Dx9 as far as they could. The original FarCry is a great example of a game that pushes Dx9 rendering and hardware really hard, yet still ran on Dx8.1 hardware. Sure, the best results weren't seen until years after Dx9 came into play, but that isn't much different than how it took years for PS3 games to come to grasp with the new architecture.

    Interestingly enough that time to come to grasp with the new consoles was greatly facilitated by the fact that the hardware was already relatively well understood in the PC space. That concept of each generation already being somewhat familiar due to similarities with the previous generation means it'll be much easier to take advantage of the hardware more fully in a smaller amount of time, results in games that don't need 5+ years of the console being in the market until your knowledge of the hardware and its quirks are finally good enough that you can start to fully exploit the capabilities of the device.

    Are some developer's not going to take advantage of a new technology advances in a "rolling generation?" Sure. But that's no different from how it is with the current generation system.

    The larger question is whether developers that currently attempt to make the most out of technology advances will still continue to do the same within a framework of a rolling generation system. And coming from a PC background, it seems highly unlikely that they would stop trying to take advantage of the latest advances in hardware.

    Heck, we already see one case of that with Doom 3 on PC. Choosing Vulkan over Dx12 due to the ability for it to support prior generations rather than only supporting the current generation. Vulkan also being used so they can take advantage of advances in technology that Dx11 and OGL don't support or don't support well. Choosing a path that simultaneously allows them to push the hardware WRT to the latest advances in GPU rendering technology while simultaneously supporting hardware that doesn't have the latest rendering technology.

    The only way I see something like this not happening is if, as you point out with PS4-P, the console manufacturer mandates that you are not allowed to take advantage of newer rendering technologies.

    Which is drastically different from mandating that you must support one generation of hardware prior to the current one.

    TL: DR - Rendering power differentials and GPU rendering capabilities that are far more divergent that what exists between XBO and Project Scorpio don't prevent game developers from including things in their game that are capable of running on the highest end hardware but not capable of running on the low end hardware at those settings.

    Regards,
    SB
     
    Shoujoboy, RootKit, Jay and 4 others like this.
  12. goonergaz

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,104
    Likes Received:
    743
    Quite, there are many reasons and I'm struggling to figure positives (best pixels ever) vs the negatives (price>why switch console>lack of true exclusives). I keep coming back to 'if Scorpio can play PC games it's got potential' but outside that it'll sell substantially less than Pro.
     
  13. Jay

    Jay
    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2013
    Messages:
    1,945
    Likes Received:
    1,091
    losing battle? lol. I don't want to discuss it because I think it doesn't add anything to the conversation apart from fanboys claiming who has best exclusives and what constitutes an exclusive.

    multi plats constitutes the vast majority of the sales.
    it could easily be argued that up until the first couple months this year Xbox has had the most biggest exclusives which never stopped them from loosing ground.
    to play ms exclusives on pc even at 720p you need a reasonable pc, Ps now could do it on tablet.
    for the odd ps console exclusive that may be good enough.
    if not what is even the point of Ps now?
    guess you can say it's still exclusive because of resolution, and sub optimal experience. lol. new way to describe exclusive though.

    you say exclusives matter, sure depends on what exclusives you like.
    pick up xbox or pc if you want to invest in a rig if you want ms exclusives
    if you want to play ps exclusives pick up ps4 or a tablet.

    personally I prefer the term console exclusive, and that includes the fact that ps now will also include ps4 games.
     
    Shoujoboy, RootKit and mosen like this.
  14. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
    Legend Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2014
    Messages:
    7,905
    Likes Received:
    6,188
    edit: english, this was highly unreadable once I made a pass of reading it.
    My earlier post was about breaking down the discussion points into things that can be agreed upon, a definitive common ground. When we say "price is king", do you want to pay X or X+50 for the same thing? Everyone would choose the cheaper price, this is definitive, there's no reason to choose the more expensive one.

    When we talk about better graphics, between "yes" and "no", the answer is yes, there's no reason to take worse graphics. Obviously, there's a price and performance value curve that exists, but ignoring that, these are common items in which all of us can agree upon sidestepping any form of bias.

    On the argument of exclusives, we run into a problem of preference. Anyone can slant something about their exclusives that would be categorically true and therefore make them the best. Generally, we want to stay away from that form of argument.

    More importantly, the weight we put on exclusives are likely more then is representative; I would argue that PS4 would not be anywhere close to as successful as it is today, if the only games that were on PS4 were it's exclusive games. Should it be the case, I suspect it would be another Nintendo story.

    On the argument of no longer requiring XBOX because all MS exclusives will arrive on PC is true provided you get windows 10. But engaging in list wars, most folks when discussing PS4 are often referring to console exclusives, not true exclusives, and you run into a similar issue.

    Should you decide to make the move to PC, you will also have access to those PS4/PC exclusives as well ( Neir, Shenmue III, SFV, No Man's Sky.. ) with the inclusion of PS3 and PS4 exclusives via PSNow. PC has nearly all the 3P games; PC has it's own exclusives as well, and it's library dates as far back as you can have the software to support it.

    All of these points combined makes 'getting a PC' a bad argument across the board for debating on which console to choose. Both consoles pale in library, feature set and performance compared to what a competent, well setup PC rig can do.

    Should you get a PC, you'll find consoles would only be useful for 'true' exclusives. In which, we can both agree that PS4 would not sell what it would today if the console were only 1P exclusive games.

    Let me rephrase. If everyone owned a competent PC gaming machine to play games with, all consoles would be as successful as Wii U, and I believe that would be fairly generous statement.

    So in the end, we also want to avoid leveraging PC into a discussion about consoles selection.
     
    #3434 iroboto, Mar 20, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  15. bunge

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2014
    Messages:
    725
    Likes Received:
    513
    For the record, I actually did read all of your post. That said, I didn't backtrack to understand the context.

    One thought; you're somewhat dismissive of console users but PC gamers are used to GPUs. For console users, GPU based systems are relatively new. So looking forward to a new generation is in part embedded in the historical divergent leap consoles received. Now with GPUs in consoles things will probably align more with PC thought processes.

    Random thought.
     
    goonergaz likes this.
  16. Silent_Buddha

    Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    16,157
    Likes Received:
    5,094
    If my wording made it appear I was dismissive of console users, then I apologize as that's now what I intended. I know there was one word I used that wasn't exactly correct, but couldn't think of the proper word.

    Basically console users expect things to be how they are because that's all they've ever known. That doesn't mean it's the best way or that it isn't the best way. At certain points in time it was definitely the best way to approach technology advances as technology. However, advancement has slowed dramatically and with it the cost of advancing the technology has increased dramatically. That's resulted in basically 3 major CPU architecture makers (2 of which are x86) and 2 major GPU architecture makers. There are some smaller ones but their ability to influence the direction of technology advances or to push it to the forefront of cutting edge tech is extremely limited by comparison. Going forward it's going to be extremely difficult to have radically different hardware that is more powerful than the relatively similar hardware of those companies.

    I was trying to demonstrate that just because that's the way it has always been doesn't mean that if you don't do it that way, then the way games are designed WRT the lastest technology doesn't change. Developers that are known for pushing the platform and the technology available to them on PC and console do it regardless of whether it's a fast cycle (like PC) or a slow cycle (like console).

    However, console users are used to how console cycles are and expect that to be how things are because they aren't intimately familiar with how developers approach faster technology advancements.

    Developers that have been saying that they'd love it if each new console generation didn't break compatibility with previous console generations aren't just being lazy and unwilling to take advantage of new technology. They want to be able to take advantage of new technology without having to virtually start over from scratch every time. This isn't a new thing. I heard similar things from developers as far back as I can remember (an was actually paying attention :p). For me that would have been during the transition to the PS2 when I started looking at what developers were saying.

    Regards,
    SB
     
    #3436 Silent_Buddha, Mar 20, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
    Shoujoboy, bunge, Jay and 3 others like this.
  17. DSoup

    DSoup meh
    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Messages:
    10,980
    Likes Received:
    5,799
    Location:
    London, UK
    It's one thing to scale the visuals, which is a concept that extends back to the 1980s, but it's another to have makes fundamental decision about what the lowest common specification that can run your game in. Developers have had to do this on PC for a long time and many devs/publishers have had to make decisions like making 6Gb or 8Gb RAM the minimum when a third a Steam users have 4Gb or less, or dropping support for dual core processors because the game just will not run.

    This is very different to scaling the visuals and is the problem I am talking about. Assassin's Creed Unity would not have worked on 360/PS3 because those machines just could not render the several hundred NPCs on screen needed for an immersive revolutionary Paris. How long before the need to support Xbox One holds back developers for exploiting Scorpio?

    Given the CPUs in the consoles are so relatively underpowered, GPU is often the only place to put certain processing tasks. This is not the case for most PCs.
     
    #3437 DSoup, Mar 20, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  18. goonergaz

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,104
    Likes Received:
    743
    No matter what you think (or anyone else) exclusives will be a factor (either small or large in deciding is debatable). As an example, anyone who has been an Xbox fan since last gen and love Halo, Gears or Forza will find it very hard to switch. Conversely for PlayStation fans Uncharted, LoU and Gran Turismo will find it hard to switch.

    Yes, and again, the only advantage of Scorpio (I can seem to see at this stage) is multiplat games will be better looking on Scorpio - but how much better? I find it hard to think it will be enough to part with $550 for it (other than a niche of gamers who are likely already in the Xbox ecosystem with their Day One edition console)

    A couple massive exclusives doesn't outweigh a wide variety of well received and smaller titles. As an example, Halo buyers will buy Halo - let's say 30% of the console base in units, but with PS you had a wider variety of exclusives which all add up..

    Reasonable spec to play 720p MS exclusives on PC? I doubt that, a 5 yo PC will play them fine at 720p. You could do PSNow on a tablet, you could do it on the worlds most powerful PC - you will still be streaming a 720p image with lag.

    Again, everything will play on PC, you can buy only titles you want and play them at potentially better than Scorpio levels for all XBox titles however PSNow will only have a small selection which will play significantly poorer which you have to pay monthly for to access.
     
  19. goonergaz

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,104
    Likes Received:
    743
    FTR pretty much everyone can get W10 for free (or next to free) so that's not a barrier.

    So in summary, I agree with what you're saying and disagree with the outcome. We're in a forum discussing mid gen upgrades with consoles. Scorpio is such an item and I can't discuss the main reasons why I think it's not a good move?

    I will step out now, I will however just make one last point about exclusives and BC. If exclusives were not important then why would Sony be working so hard with producing them, hell even resurrecting the dead Last Guardian. If BC is so important why I Sony not even offering any on PS4.

    I understood the Pro, it offers a simple nice upgrade at a reasonable price. It's a clear product in my mind. With Scorpio it seems to me they are offering a similar product but with better results at a substantially higher price. If it sells more than Pro I will be shocked. The only reason it might is if it's life-span is substantially longer because if you're suggesting MS will struggle to get below £200 with XBO then what is the bottom price of Scorpio which doesn't have a Kinect you can throw away from the build cost!?

    Ok, I'm out now - no more about why I think Scorpio is a bad console or why I think it could be great (because that involves PCs which for some reason is not allowed to be included in the discussion).
     
    #3439 goonergaz, Mar 20, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  20. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
    Legend Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2014
    Messages:
    7,905
    Likes Received:
    6,188
    I'll start here and go backwards. The reasons are fine, and the reasons you placed are valid! But we run into merry-go-round arguments when we cannot definitively agree on items. More importantly, exclusives and BC games are not a feature that belong to the console, they belong to the ecosystem. In which your arguments are not a strike against purchasing Scorpio, more as strike against purchasing into the XBOX ecosystem.

    If we talk about things that belong to Scorpio it would have to be exclusives or features that belong exclusively to it; in this case it's hardware and price, and the Upgraded scorpio visuals for patched games, and more consistent performance of XBO games for non patched games.

    Exclusives are important! They are the deciding factor between which ecosystem to go for, for many people. But that's only true because the 3P offerings are the same between the two.

    But that's a misstep when evaluating a console. The better performing console will play the titles better and that needs to be weighed into the discussion when talking about the console itself. If you want the best 3P experience, then you must go to the console that provides it.

    Much like PS4 was better at it than XBO.
    And normally I wouldn't walk down this path because ecosystem is more important than hardware, but since we are on the topic of midgen refresh and neither mid gen refresh plays exclusives. Then the ecosystem doesn't change at all.

    But these mid-gen refeshes change the quality of experience of their respective ecosystems. Some of us are debating how. Others debating what. Some of us debating how much. They are not going to change the fact that the ecosystems are different.

    And while Scorpio is powerful enough to have new types of exclusives, it won't have them. Dsoups argument. Therefore the ecosystem won't change. And for you, therefore it won't matter. Thus why you see 4Pro as simpler, and Scorpio as confusing. The other side of the debate is whether or not Scorpio can provide enough graphical uplift to change the experience of the ecosystem enough to gain new customers.

    No rules to debate. You asked why you cannot see why anyone would buy a Scorpio.

    the TLDR; is that you like Steak and Lobster (PlayStation). Another dish offers steak and potatoes (XBO). You see no reason to buy only steak potatoes because potatoes bore you vs the lobster. But what if the steak and potatoes was the bestest steak and potatoes you've ever tasted (Scorpio). Could you see the possibility of A purchaser now wanting to prefer that over Steak and Lobster?

    That's my summary! ;)
     
    #3440 iroboto, Mar 20, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
    Shoujoboy, BRiT, AzBat and 1 other person like this.
Loading...
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...