Middle Generation Console Upgrade Discussion [Scorpio, 4Pro]

[Cyan]

Sorry for replying to this so late, but I see no one making this point.

Where did Sony PS4 sales lead come from? If they could do it why couldn't MS? Plenty of people who bought PS4 owned Xbox360 and left bunch of their xbox library there. Reason why PS4 sold so well has been 90% of the time that it outperformed xbox in multiplats and those people want "best, most powerfull" console even though visually no noticable difference. Xbox360 and ps3 ended up with like 90million vs 85million consoles sold and all of a sudden PS4 has 70 mill and xbox 40mil, where did other 65 million go?

There's plenty of people who still have not moved from their older gens, but what MS ks doing will take away lots of Sony userbase aswell as PC userbase due to having PC like performance at 1/3 the price of PC

that sounds all nice and good, but if you want to create a Megatron, treat all users equally and be different. There is no doubt that Scorpio is going to be a Windows machine. And with Play Anywhere and stuff like that, the fact that console users must pay for the online service of a given game when PC gamers don't have to...is unfair treatment towards console gamers, who are fed up of the loss of exclusives, except if it was for a greater good.

If they create a free to play online service to everyone -Play Anywhere, UWP, etc-, being Gold optional by offering GwG games and amazing sales for those who pay for Gold, then that sounds more reasonable.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Reason why PS4 sold so well has been 90% of the time that it outperformed xbox in multiplats and those people want "best, most powerfull" console even though visually no noticable difference.

If that's the case, why did so many members of these forums, who understood the relative merits of how XBO's 12 CU DDR3 system compared to PS4's 18 CU GDDR5 system, chose an Xbox One? This assertion needs to die. There is no consumer market where the high performance option outsells the mid-rage or low-end offerings.

 

[sebbbi]

If that's the case, why did so many members of these forums, who understood the relative merits of how XBO's 12 CU DDR3 system compared to PS4's 18 CU GDDR5 system, chose an Xbox One? This assertion needs to die. There is no consumer market where the high performance option outsells the mid-rage or low-end offerings.

Xbox One had Kinect at launch and it was actually slightly more expensive than PS4 (at least here in Europe). Xbox One also had HDMI-in to pass through media devices, IR-blaster (to control your other equipment) and better online media services at launch. So it wasn't a clear cut choice. Xbox had advantages that some people preferred. This can't be compared with traditional high-end vs low-end (100$ Android phones vs Samsung Galaxy S & iPhone).

When Microsoft removed Kinect and dropped the price of Xbox One to match PS4, the competition become more about pure performance. PS4 has a clear performance advantage (but nowhere near traditional high-end vs low-end), so technically inclined people lean towards it, unless they already have ties to Xbox (LIVE friends, gamerscore/achievements, games with backwards compatibility, etc) or if they prefer Xbox game catalog more. There are also many Xbox services that are only available in US. Nice extra value to US consumers. This is likely one of the reasons why Xbox is so popular in US, but PS4 sells much better in Europe.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Xbox One had Kinect at launch and it was actually slightly more expensive than PS4 (at least here in Europe). Xbox One also had HDMI-in to pass through media devices, IR-blaster (to control your other equipment) and better online media services at launch. So it wasn't a clear cut choice. Xbox had advantages that some people preferred. This can't be compared with traditional high-end vs low-end (100$ Android phones vs Samsung Galaxy S & iPhone).

For generations it's never been a clear cut choice and probably never will. Going back to a few generations when Xbox launched, Microsoft made big of online whereas Sony didn't on PS2 (although it was an option). Last gen relative performance was closer but it still wasn't clear cut choice becasue it was the HD generation and Sony were offering Blu-ray as standard and the PS3 "only does everything". You have to go back a loooong way where it was anything like clear cut. I can't see things being clearer in the future either as as forwards/backwards compatibility and ecosystem investment in will be factors.

I'd argue (and will.. to the death!) that relative performance has never been less meaningless, as long as everybody is in the same ballpark.

 

[Nisaaru]

I only chose the XB1 for the controller. I had a lot misgivings about MS's hardware choices. If they hadn't allowed Kinect to be unplugged during the summer I would have *not* made that decision.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I'd argue (and will.. to the death!) that relative performance has never been less meaningless, as long as everybody is in the same ballpark.

To be clear I meant less meaningful. Or more meaningless. Or, it just does't matter!!!

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Well I will argue, perhaps not to the death, but I'll take a bruise or two that Platform power is one of the most if not the most important singular attribute (price is tough to beat...). At the end of the day it's still just a one attribute though and it can't overcome a clear deficit in multiple other major attributes. When all or most of the other important attributes are close to equal, such as price, launch timeframe, overall game selection etc. the difference in power becomes more visible and important. I do believe power played a very important factor in this generation and other importan factor was that I think Playstation in general has way more brand power worldwide in the console realm, which helps them a ton. I think it saved them last gen actually. If back then Sony had a 1 year headstart with a very powerful console, the end result would not have been a tie, but even more of a beating than what we have currently seen in this gen.

 

[Cyan]

did Shifty write some parts of this article? The article discusses whether Scorpio is a full-fledged new console or just a much more powerful Xbox One..

http://gamingbolt.com/should-the-xbox-one-scorpio-have-been-a-full-fledged-next-generation-system

Think about the kinds of games, the massive leaps forwards, we could get. Do you remember how you felt the first time you played The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, Gears of War, and Dead Rising? Those games felt like true leaps forward, far ahead and beyond anything that had been achieved in any existing video game until that point. And that only happened because third parties developed those games around the Xbox 360 spec, instead of also worrying about making those games run on Xbox

 

[ramr]

did Shifty write some parts of this article? The article discusses whether Scorpio is a full-fledged new console or just a much more powerful Xbox One..

http://gamingbolt.com/should-the-xbox-one-scorpio-have-been-a-full-fledged-next-generation-system

Articles like this make me SMDH. Scorpio isn't going to be held back by XBO. All development of franchises that matter is going to be done on a high-end PC, and PS4-class assets will be built. Therefore, XBO compatibility in no way influences Scorpio. There will be two development forks - PC + scorpio and other consoles. This is no different that today with the exception of Scorpio taking advantage of all of the things designed for high-end PCs. The need to serve the PS4 market is always going to constrain features (or at least require a thoughtful decision to have PC+scorpio only features) regardless of scorpio-XBO compatibility.

For the next 3-4 years, only Microsoft could afford/make a business case for Scorpio only games. Moreover, MS could easily justify the extra 10-20% budget increase needed to support dual development that enabled scorpio only features.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

How many PC games have high-level PC only features?

 

[BRiT]

How many PC games have high-level PC only features?

All of them that have individual graphic options menus.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

If @ramr only means graphics options, what's the need for forking off a PC+Scorpio branch? Just scale assets as we presently do.

 

[AlNom]

Nvidia GameWorks more or less.

Otherwise turning up buffer res or sample count is a performance trade-off and doesn't detract from the actual implementation of said feature.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

How many PC games have high-level PC only features?

Almost all of them, If you count very high resolutions and anti-aliasing as high-level.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

You're not reading in context. Higher graphics settings is not a requirement to have separate Scorpio and other console forks. @ramr is saying game development will follow a model where there is a XB1/PS4/PS4 Pro version of a game, and a separate PC (and Scorpio) version. But why is the PC version different now (is it?!), and why will Scorpio be lumped in with the PC version that scales from dual 1080s on a 5GHz i7 down to integrated Intel graphics on a dual core 3 GHz i3?

 

[Gubbi]

But why is the PC version different now (is it?!), and why will Scorpio be lumped in with the PC version that scales from dual 1080s on a 5GHz i7 down to integrated Intel graphics on a dual core 3 GHz i3?

Probably much faster CPU.

Cheers

 

[Shifty Geezer]

But the PC version doesn't differentiate between CPU power - you don't get more AI agents or better in-game physics with a high end CPU versus a low end - so why would Scorpio need differentiation? And why does the PC fork that targets low end machines match Scorpio where the XB1 fork doesn't?

 

[JPT]

Looking at all this Scorpio chatter, it reminds me of the secret 2nd GPU of XB1 etc.

To me it looks like MS had to release specs for Scorpio since Sony went with PS4 Pro, maybe catching MS a little by surprise.
And they ended up releasing info to earlier than what they intended/wanted, its fun to read the speculation. As it was for XB1, PS4 and PS4 Pro.

But will it be such a big jump that people actually care/notice and I am not talking about people on the forums.
Albeit all info/indications says it will be more powerful than the PS4 Pro, but will it matter, more than price?
And can the Pro step up if it's unshackled, is there anything to unshackle?

I do like the VM nature of the XB (even if I am not a big fan of BC) and I wonder if that could be the "winning" factor for a potential future MS win.

I am looking forward to the Scorpio and then what Sony's move will be and then what MS's move will be and so forth.

 

[Cyan]

But the PC version doesn't differentiate between CPU power - you don't get more AI agents or better in-game physics with a high end CPU versus a low end - so why would Scorpio need differentiation? And why does the PC fork that targets low end machines match Scorpio where the XB1 fork doesn't?

Depends on your definition of differentiation.As long as they keep they promise and Scorpio,as they define it,is really "Beyond Generations",I might get one:smile2:

Not Scorpio related,but for people in their early 30s and beyond,an amazing cover for one of the most catchy electronic songs ever /for an also great movie prequel (can't wait). This is from when Britain was great.

 

[Cyan]

If @ramr only means graphics options, what's the need for forking off a PC+Scorpio branch? Just scale assets as we presently do.

The Xbox dashboard is Windows 10 completely, curtailed to work only in that MS kind of format "application" of the store. What works in one, works in the other.

Therefore, it would be as simple as having a Steam button to "exit Big Picture" or "exit the Xbox Dashboard" so there is just Windows 10 below just like on any computer. :smile2:

Why don't they do that if that demolishes the console market yes or yes (imagine a console with a catalog of say 20,000+ games) ? Well, let's everyone speculate.

One part of that is maybe they are afraid to serve the console market on a silver platter to Steam, :smile2: another part is fear of monopoly, another part agreements with the oligopoly so that does not happen, another part of that is just they don't want that because their real market is the PC, Xbox is just there to control the roost a little, and the other part is stupidity.

We mix everything, and we have more or less why.