*merged/spinoff* for the Neverending Killzone Discussion on Graphics

[kagemaru]

That doesn't have anything to do with my post. A great problem solver solves problems. Devs, by trade, are suppose to be good troubleshooters/solvers. The PS3 is a flexible platform. Plenty of other devs are properly solving their problems. If you are creating major problems you can't properly solve, that is a serious...problem. :smile:

It has everything to do with your post.

Developers don't create major problems, system bottlenecks do. What one dev does to handle these issues in their game may not apply to another. There are various factors you are ignoring here.

For all you know, Crysis 2 could have been an even lower resolution on the ps3 if it were not for Crytek's being great "problem solvers".

Wait until the demo is released, that's supposed to be near final ps3 code. I'm sure it won't be disappointing at all.

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

It has everything to do with your post.

Developers don't create major problems, system bottlenecks do. What one dev does to handle these issues in their game may not apply to another. There are various factors you are ignoring here.

For all you know, Crysis 2 could have been an even lower resolution on the ps3 if it were not for Crytek's being great "problem solvers".

Wait until the demo is released, that's supposed to be near final ps3 code. I'm sure it won't be disappointing at all.

Wrong. Everything can have a bottleneck. It's just life. If you don't consider those things in planning, you are creating a problem. It's just that simple. The only way to argue against that is to believe only certain systems have bottlenecks.

 

[L. Scofield]

Wrong. Everything can have a bottleneck. It's just life. If you don't consider those things in planning, you are creating a problem. It's just that simple. The only way to argue against that is to believe only certain systems have bottlenecks.

What's your point?

 

[2real4tv]

Killzone is no slouch either in the particle department the best imo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6kdLNGncNI

 

[L. Scofield]

Killzone is no slouch either in the particle department the best imo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6kdLNGncNI

Seems like the particle effects fade out faster in KZ3.

 

[2real4tv]

Seems like the particle effects fade out faster in KZ3.

Yes I also noticed they toned down the spark bounce I don't notice it as much anymore

 

[Afrikan]

Seems like the particle effects fade out faster in KZ3.

are wind physics respected in KZ3? Would that have any affect in causing it to fade out faster? Because when both versions were indoor and he was shooting at the wall, both particle effects seemed to fade out some what equally.

 

[L. Scofield]

is wind physics respected in the KZ3? Would that have any affect in causing it fade out faster? Because when both versions were indoor and he was shooting at the wall, both particle effects seemed to fade out some what equally.

Different effects basically. I don't think the wind has any effect, it's not like they're simulating smoke dispersion, it's just a sprite. Maybe an artistic decision only.

 

[ultragpu]

Different effects basically. I don't think the wind has any effect, it's not like they're simulating smoke dispersion, it's just a sprite. Maybe an artistic decision only.

In killzone 2's train level the wind affects your grenade throwing trajectory. The smoke from exploding barrels were also affected in both kz2 and kz3.

 

[L. Scofield]

In killzone 2's train level the wind affects your grenade throwing trajectory. The smoke from exploding barrels were also affected in both kz2 and kz3.

Yes, the sprites move in the direction of the wind, but that doesn't affect persistence.

 

[ultragpu]

Yes, the sprites move in the direction of the wind, but that doesn't affect persistence.

Just had a quick look at Pyrrus Crater MP, you can find plenty of long lingering smoke effect similar to kz2's in that level.

 

[patsu]

The bouncing particles are there near the end of the trailer when you shoot at metal. The snow levels also have constant particles blowing in your face. At the same time, it's less likely to find the lingering smoke effect, and the accumulating smoke effect when you continue to shoot at the walls (Need more concrete in KZ3 ?).

You can ask Seb from GG directly in this thread about the wind and particle effects:
http://community.us.playstation.com/thread/2453670?start=1560&tstart=0
Someone asked about dynamic wind system before. I forgot the answers.

It's not a simple matter of using brand XXX tech or libraries. I wish GG would do another trailer to counter KZ2's "Ballet of Death". In that short KZ2 clip, we saw all the sleek animations, physics, lighting and particle effects together.

 

[L. Scofield]

Just had a quick look at Pyrrus Crater MP, you can find plenty of long lingering smoke effect similar to kz2's in that level.

I'm talking only about the grenade explosion, since it's a direct comparison.

 

[Neb]

Last time I checked High setting has about more than twice the polys of Medium setting, and Low setting is much lower still. Overall it's rendering a lot less polys than Crysis 1 that's for sure and as for consoles I would imagine the polys fall between med-low judging by the aggressive pop ins and LOD.

In beta with broken config system low+medium has minmal difference in polygons and settings and high has roughly twice the polygons. Neither config except low is being applied fully correct nor the shaders. Anyway fake high hits upwards 1.8m as some pics on the web, medium low uwpards 1m/frame. I can tell you true high avg at 3m polys/frame and can peak much higher. Assets+geometry. The games true high "hardcore" scales way beyond Crysis very high preset.

As for KZ3's polys, that snowy screenshot displays 1m/frame but it's hardly the most dense environment in the game. The nuked City, Scrapyard, Mawler battle and Jungle level all sport considerably more polygons on screen, especially the scrapyard level. Even then, that snowy screenshot isn't the best example to show off the highest polycount in that level.
http://i51.tinypic.com/2zjaufq.jpg
http://i53.tinypic.com/2pqryir.jpg
http://i52.tinypic.com/rhrj2e.jpg

I dont see any more complex scenery in those pics, actually the reverse. You need to understand mapping and artwork painting aint real geometry, I thought people already knew this since years ago.

 

[Neb]

Sure. Just like GG ran into those issues. They were solved. Great devs are great problem solvers, IMO.

But a multiplatform game has a quality bar set. It's the minimum. Crytek has it set that all effects will be in for both consoles. They might have run into PS3 HW limitations/no more perfomance to squeeze out and instead of shaving off effects and/or downgrading the effects quality they opt for lower frambuffer resolution. Now if final game has it remains to be seen and only thing measured was video by MD. They might have changed or even opted for removing effects instead.

As you said, great devs are problem solver.

"Crytek solving the problem by reducing res a bit, now PS3 can keep all the effects which btw are needed for SP to be expressed correctly as intended by devs."

However lets wait for final game to really see what res it is running at.

 

[Ruskie]

Sure. Just like GG ran into those issues. They were solved. Great devs are great problem solvers, IMO.

The problem is that Crysis 2 is mutliplat game.Crytek set goal that consoles have to have all major effects you see in PC game and thats it.They could fake their HDR but they obviously went for real thing.They could go without SSGI,they didn't.They could go without interactive water but they didn't.They could...you get the point.

The thing is that ALL platforms have to have same base.If you are Crytek you won't be able to cheat on PS3 or 360 in different ways because results would be very different,game would not even look like same game.Obviously,GG can do just that.They don't have to render hundreds of trees like for example RDR and save bandwidth and performance but obviously RDR must,its the point of game being multiplat.

Anyway...I firmly believe Crytek did everything that they could with consoles and that there is just nothing left in them to render it in native 720p.Maybe their "all out everything real time" way was just to much for 2005 hardware with less than 500 megs.

 

[N_B]

I dont see any more complex scenery in those pics, actually the reverse. You need to understand mapping and artwork painting aint real geometry, I thought people already knew this since years ago.

Perhaps videos would do it justice...

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-02-22-killzone-3-video-walkthrough?page=7

Most of the detail that extends into the distance is indeed real geometry. What in the above pictures isn't?

Though I suspect this is getting off topic, or has been for a while perhaps this should move to the game technology thread?

 

[ultragpu]

I dont see any more complex scenery in those pics, actually the reverse. You need to understand mapping and artwork painting aint real geometry, I thought people already knew this since years ago.

Trust me I know what I'm seeing here, mapping can only go so far. This Crysis 2 shot is about 1.7m polys on High setting and the kz3 shot below looks at least as dense if not more.
http://i56.tinypic.com/2aes6z8.jpg

 

[Ruskie]

...now put advance(medium) settings of the same scene and you will get 40% less polygons in debug but the scene complexity will look exactly the same.

Thats no way to judge it and it is becoming rather boring because you got info straight from the GG engine yet you people are trying to guess poly count just by looking at the picture.

 

[ct03]

Most of the detail that extends into the distance is indeed real geometry. What in the above pictures isn't?

When people praise the amount of geometry detail in pictures like these, I almost wish I didn't do 3D for a living. I would love to believe that these scenes are highly detailed. Unfortunately, flat surfaces with flat texture maps jump out at me like Linda Blair in those scary maze pranks.

I'm not singling out this game at all, I just comment on what I see in those pictures. The buildings and the ground use so few polygons that you can pretty much count them (I'm not kidding). I could draw a wireframe on top by hand. The large objects scattered on the floor use very few triangles as well. In fact, the rifle appears to be the densest object in the shot.

I'd estimate the amount of visible triangles in a shot like this at no more than 100,000.