*merged/spinoff* for the Neverending Killzone Discussion on Graphics

[KKRT]

They should invent some new form of security regarding handling of unreleased games. PC games leaking either gold version or internal builds, same with 360 games and PS3 now to (or perhaps it has happened before?). Yesterday C2 dev beta build, today KZ3 gold build? Damn..

http://n4g.com/news/699382/killzone-3-has-leaked-on-the-torrent-sites

Btw according to some comment it looks like this for files. Might be inaccurate though.

Its not unusual, game can be bought in few shop in Poland already, so its not security leak, just retail leak.

And about MLAA, for me it actually work really well in KZ 3. Yeah it has some weaknesses and KZ 3 has many shader aliasing too, but overall the IQ is better than in Uncharted 2.
And if we can get so much more detailed environments and character with MLAA, go for it.

Some great direct feeds from my friend's capture card:

Spoiler

Characters models:
Rico
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img006.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img005.jpg
ISA NPC:
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img007.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img008.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img011.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img015.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img010.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img013.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img014.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img012.jpg

Environments
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img001.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img002.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img003.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img004.jpg

Ps. With this capture card i could make fps analysis videos, but i dont have application/scripts for that. Are there are any public scripts for that? :>

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

Or it would seem that when a PS3 game is analyzed and negative points are mentioned, a group of individuals come from nowhere to defend their system of choice due to pride or hurt feelings. Not sure which.

It seems like when the words "Ps3", "can't", or "bad" are put in the same sentences when discussing an exclusive, people try to spin or debate said comments.

I think that people like you have a problem with you negative to positive comment ratio, when it comes to PS3 exclusive games. These people know there are way more positive things to say about the game than negative. They still just accent the negative and glance over or ignore the positive. That's not the correct behavior you should exhibit, unless this is universally done across all games. That isn't the case with these people, at all.

I think another reason these people are having a tough time with KZ3 is because there were so many unused clock cycles in KZ2. Now, all those clock cycles are being used in KZ3. Sometimes, it's not always about resources being shifted around. Sometimes, there is just more resources to be used. It doesn't seem like that's been the case for 360 for quite some time (MS dev slides from 360 launch games show 85% clock cycle usage), so their fans need to lash out at recent PS3 exclusive games that drive the point home.

KKRT, I love the footprints left behind in one of those shots. I love tracking people's footprints in the multiplayer demo, too!

 

[ultragpu]

Its not unusual, game can be bought in few shop in Poland already, so its not security leak, just retail leak.

And about MLAA, for me it actually work really well in KZ 3. Yeah it has some weaknesses and KZ 3 has many shader aliasing too, but overall the IQ is better than in Uncharted 2.
And if we can get so much more detailed environments and character with MLAA, go for it.

Some great direct feeds from my friend's capture card:

Spoiler

Characters models:
Rico
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img006.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img005.jpg
ISA NPC:
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img007.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img008.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img011.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img015.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img010.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img013.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img014.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img012.jpg

Environments
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img001.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img002.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img003.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img004.jpg

The character models and textures, as well as the environments are really a huge step up from kz2. MLAA to me is almost perfect as I'm one of those who's totally immune to the subpixel aliasing. The arctic shots really do look stunning due to both tech and art.

 

[2real4tv]

Its not unusual, game can be bought in few shop in Poland already, so its not security leak, just retail leak.

And about MLAA, for me it actually work really well in KZ 3. Yeah it has some weaknesses and KZ 3 has many shader aliasing too, but overall the IQ is better than in Uncharted 2.
And if we can get so much more detailed environments and character with MLAA, go for it.

Some great direct feeds from my friend's capture card:

Spoiler

Characters models:
Rico
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img006.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img005.jpg
ISA NPC:
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img007.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img008.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img011.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img015.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img010.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img013.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img014.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img012.jpg

Environments
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img001.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img002.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img003.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/KZ3_a/kz3_img004.jpg

Ps. With this capture card i could make fps analysis videos, but i dont have application/scripts for that. Are there are any public scripts for that? :>

Wow some ps2 graphics there GG you fail.

 

[L. Scofield]

I think that people like you have a problem with you negative to positive comment ratio, when it comes to PS3 exclusive games. These people know there are way more positive things to say about the game than negative. They still just accent the negative and glance over or ignore the positive. That's not the correct behavior you should exhibit, unless this is universally done across all games. That isn't the case with these people, at all.

So, you're as negative with KZ3 as you are with C2?

This is called "projection"

 

[corduroygt]

So, you're as negative with KZ3 as you are with C2?

The general consensus of the masses is more negative of C2 than KZ3, so his reaction is closer to the expected value than yours.

 

[Tap In]

The general consensus of the masses is more negative of C2 than KZ3, so his reaction is closer to the expected value than yours.

Perhaps it's just that with a Multiplat title people feel more free to express themselves since it won't offend the delicate sensibilities of one particular group banking on their game's worth in the graphics sphere.

 

[Scott_Arm]

The general consensus of the masses is more negative of C2 than KZ3, so his reaction is closer to the expected value than yours.

Is that even true?

Seriously, this thread sucks.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

The graphics technologies behind these games are actually remarkably similar and indicate some convergence in the developers' approaches, especially when you add Uncharted, Reach, the new DICE engine, Sebbi's work and so on. All these games defer the lighting, use (cascaded?) shadow buffers, heavy post processing, SSAO and so on. They're all significant technical accomplishments and I don't think anyone here would ever consider dismissing this fact.

But they all have to make some compromises as well, because of the need to run on relatively slow and constrained hardware and still reach 30fps. The systems are already pushed very close to their limits and no developer is clever enough to bend the physics of that.
So KZ sacrifices lighting/color precision, Crysis sacrifices some of the image quality and has loads of pop-in, Uncharted forces players on a very linear and closed path, Reach has a little less spectacle, and so on.

In the end it's not really possible to claim superiority for any of these developers or their products, IMHO. Especially when you factor in the dozens or hundreds of artists who produce the actual content that the engine is eventually used to "just" display.
Sure, some of us might consider a set of these sacrifices to be more severe than the others, but let's just take a look at the games of 2006 to see how far the industry has come in only 4-5 years.

And we should also keep in mind, when we look at the tech here, that in the end it's still about the games, and the best selling titles are still running on either the COD or the UE3 engine

 

[L. Scofield]

The general consensus of the masses is more negative of C2 than KZ3, so his reaction is closer to the expected value than yours.

The masses are irrelevant. He accuses other people of doing exactly the same as he does. In other words, he's a hypocrite.

 

[ihamoitc2005]

Expectations

So, you're as negative with KZ3 as you are with C2?

This is called "projection"

I think the simple reason is that Killzone 3 is better than expected but Crysis 2 is worse than expected.

So there is more bone to pick with Crysis 2. It has some very grievous problems.

Also Killzone 3 production has clearly higher standard. Crysis 2 takes shortcuts for 3D display (simple image warping) but Killzone 3 has full stereoscopic render for each eye so there is not only depth but also additional information as you will have in the real world. For example, if in 3D space there is something that can only be seen by the left eye, in Killzone 3's 3D system you will see it but in Crysis 2 you will not.

MLAA implementation is also amazing. It is much better than anything people would think to see in consoles. Then also there is motion blur, dof, etc.

Only disappointment for me with Killzone 3 is the fire on burning objects. It is really low res.

 

[L. Scofield]

MLAA implementation is also amazing. It is much better than anything people would think to see in consoles.

I disagree with this. While MLAA is good, it falls short of MSAA as exemplified by all the shimmering present in KZ3.

 

[KKRT]

I disagree with this. While MLAA is good, it falls short of MSAA as exemplified by all the shimmering present in KZ3.

There are still many shimmering in GT 5 and in my PC games, especially because of shader aliasing or HDR.
Just watch this http://iryoku.com/mlaa/ You can still see shimmering with 8x MSAA.
Yes, its true that MLAA will have a little more shimmering than 8x MSAA, but You have to consider also that Sony's MLAA implementation is more advanced and rendering process and assets are created with MLAA in mind.

 

[Arwin]

There are still many shimmering in GT 5 and in my PC games, especially because of shader aliasing or HDR.
Just watch this http://iryoku.com/mlaa/ You can still see shimmering with 8x MSAA.
Yes, its true that MLAA will have a little more shimmering than 8x MSAA, but You have to consider also that Sony's MLAA implementation is more advanced and rendering process and assets are created with MLAA in mind.

Not unimportant also is how many games do you know that actually have a decent amount of MSAA? In the case of Killzone for instance, 2 had 2xQAA, which is the only relatively low-cost AA solution available on the PS3 / RSX. Regular MSAA is very costly on the console, and only some special titles manage to pull it off at all, let alone 4xMSAA. 8xMSAA does not exist on consoles.

And while there is shimmering sometimes (though I've only noticed some in the online beta myself so far), very often there also hardly isn't, and in this case the results for MLAA can be rather spectacular. And all this while MLAA makes the rendering pipeline much cheaper than for MSAA, particularly on consoles, and even more particularly on PS3.

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

I disagree with this. While MLAA is good, it falls short of MSAA as exemplified by all the shimmering present in KZ3.

I remember all the talk of how jaggies really break the immersion for some people here. Now, it seems that some shimmering is worse than tons of jaggies. I don't think there is another technique, on consoles, that even in the same ballpark as GoW3's MLAA implementation besides 4xMSAA. To me, KZ3's MLAA implementation is a no brainer over 4xMSAA (in most cases).

 

[corduroygt]

There is no better console framebuffer + AA solution that's better than MLAA for shooters. It's infinitely better than rendering at 1152x720 with temporal AA or rendering at ~600p with 2xMSAA, or Fallout low-quality graphics with 4xMSAA. For better graphics, you have to go to Piracy Center.

MLAA and other "filtering" techniques work even better at 1080p, since pixels are smaller and aliasing becomes generally less noticable overall.

 

[L. Scofield]

You have to consider also that Sony's MLAA implementation is more advanced and rendering process and assets are created with MLAA in mind.

Considering the amount of small objects like rails and the like (which cause most of the aliasing), I don't think that's accurate. On the whole it looks very good, but it definately has its flaws.

It's infinitely better than rendering at 1152x720 with temporal AA

Not much of a problem if you're used to LCD gaming Works with small polys too.

I really hope next gen devs sort the IQ problem out. Can't believe after 15 years of realtime 3d graphics we still suffer from jaggies. That and bad texture filtering.

 

[corduroygt]

Not much of a problem if you're used to LCD gaming Works with small polys too.

Care to explain? I really have no clue what you mean here.

 

[L. Scofield]

Care to explain? I really have no clue what you mean here.

1) LCD Gaming = ghosting galore
2) MLAA is useless with small polys.

 

[BoardBonobo]

1) LCD Gaming = ghosting galore
2) MLAA is useless with small polys.

That's a little redundant.

How many people are going to be gaming on HD CRTs? Especially on consoles? And unless you're using an old LCD box you shouldn't get much ghosting.

But you're probably right about the next gen of consumer boxes having the power to crack the IQ issues. Since it seems that no developer this generation has.