*merged/spinoff* for the Neverending Killzone Discussion on Graphics

[Trejser]

Not unimportant also is how many games do you know that actually have a decent amount of MSAA? In the case of Killzone for instance, 2 had 2xQAA, which is the only relatively low-cost AA solution available on the PS3 / RSX. Regular MSAA is very costly on the console, and only some special titles manage to pull it off at all, let alone 4xMSAA. 8xMSAA does not exist on consoles.

Actually, QAA is slighy more taxing to PS3 hardware than MSAAx2, devs are using it because they prefer it over MSAAx2, belive it or not

 

[patsu]

What I forgot to mention: I like how the pieces of floating ice in the sea are animated. That's a nice touch.

Yes, I remember that. Should be interesting to see the undulating sea water in the midst of all the action. Can you land on the floating ice ?

Sev is going to freeze to death isn't he.

It looks like temperature is so low that he is stuck to the railing. ^_^

devs are using [QAA] because they prefer it over MSAAx2, belive it or not

Personally, it was a perrrfect fit for KZ2's gloomy, dusty or rainy environments !

 

[corduroygt]

1) LCD Gaming = ghosting galore
2) MLAA is useless with small polys.

If LCD gaming was ghosting galore as you stated, then developers wouldn't need to add Temporal AA, or any AA, since the ghosting would blur the line edges. Maybe you're stuck in LCD technology from 2003, but I have never noticed any ghosting in my set with 2ms GTG response times, or my previous set with 5ms GTG response times.

Disregarding everything else, 1152x720 + Temporal AA is vastly inferior to 1280x720 + SPU MLAA implementation, period.

 

[patsu]

Are developers rushing to implement temporal AA for their games ?

 

[Prophecy2k]

I remember all the talk of how jaggies really break the immersion for some people here. Now, it seems that some shimmering is worse than tons of jaggies. I don't think there is another technique, on consoles, that even in the same ballpark as GoW3's MLAA implementation besides 4xMSAA. To me, KZ3's MLAA implementation is a no brainer over 4xMSAA (in most cases).

Agreed. 4xMSAA wouldn't even be possible in KZ3. So the guy's post in pointless in this thread.

 

[L. Scofield]

That's a little redundant.

How many people are going to be gaming on HD CRTs? Especially on consoles? And unless you're using an old LCD box you shouldn't get much ghosting.

Well that's my point, with LCD, temporal AA ghosting is not much of an issue.

But you're probably right about the next gen of consumer boxes having the power to crack the IQ issues. Since it seems that no developer this generation has.

All in all, it's always a developer decision. Right now we could have perfect AA and AF, but the decision was made to cut that back in order to max other stuff. Hopefully with more realistic graphics next gen, developers will realize IQ is of the utmost importance.

If LCD gaming was ghosting galore as you stated, then developers wouldn't need to add Temporal AA, or any AA, since the ghosting would blur the line edges.

The ghosting itself is not what blurs the lines (at least not Crytek's implementations), it's a side effect.

Maybe you're stuck in LCD technology from 2003, but I have never noticed any ghosting in my set with 2ms GTG response times, or my previous set with 5ms GTG response times.

I do my gaming on a CRT monitor so LCDs ghosting, even in the newest sets is pretty noticeable to me.

Disregarding everything else, 1152x720 + Temporal AA is vastly inferior to 1280x720 + SPU MLAA implementation, period.

Not when you're scene is full of small polys. It works better sometimes, it works worse others.

 

[ShadowRunner]

My experience from actually playing the game is that aliasing or shimmering is not one of its issues unlike many other games, many or which use 2xMSAA. The best thing about MLAA is that it frees up GPU time and so despite some issues overall it seems a net win and thus why it is becoming increasingly popular.

One thing i dont like so much is the toned down motion blur, i wish they would put it back to KZ2 levels.

 

[patsu]

Did a quick search. It looks like according to DigitalFoundry, temporal AA can be problematic…

The second issue was with large scenery structures that were close to the player. Walking past them would incur considerable frame-blending, as you can see in this older video of the beta taken from our previous coverage. It's most likely for these reasons that Crysis 2 uses a similar temporal AA technique, but only on far-away detail, relying on edge-detect plus blur for close-by objects.

No temporal AA at all for close up objects in C2 ? So C2 is using a proprietary edge detect plus blur ? Is it an approximation to MLAA ?

Temporal AA frame-blending is much improved over the beta but still problematic in some cut-scenes, and when large objects move quickly past the player.

GT5 also has temporal AA. There is shimmering there due to shader aliasing. Doesn't look like temporal AA can avoid shimmering either.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I think MLAA was the right choice for Killzone 3, even if it doesn't work quite as well as it did in God of War 3.

 

[Arwin]

GT5 also has temporal AA. There is shimmering there due to shader aliasing. Doesn't look like temporal AA can avoid shimmering either.

GT5 depends of course on your settings, as quaz51 has explained somewhere.

TAA was also used in Framework engine 2.0 on PS3 I believe, for DMC4 for instance? There you could see some of its limits - if you're not moving for instance, then there's no temporal change input to use for your AA. Same if there is too much movement I guess.

 

[assurdum]

I think MLAA was the right choice for Killzone 3, even if it doesn't work quite as well as it did in God of War 3.

I'm with you. But I'm also interested to see different MLAA implementation on the ps3 (like the last NVIDIA solution, with substitute the vertex with a single subpixel shader) & see how works in comparison. Probably the shimmering could be decreased a lot (NVIDIA said not causing artifact compared to sony solution) but I don't know if possible on the ps3.

 

[KKRT]

Not when you're scene is full of small polys. It works better sometimes, it works worse others.

You mean Crytek's implementation? Crysis 2 Beta has more shimmering from sub-pixels and more aliased edges than MLAA in KZ 3, a lot more. You'll can see that with Your own eyes in about an hour ;]

 

[betan]

GT5 depends of course on your settings, as quaz51 has explained somewhere.

TAA was also used in Framework engine 2.0 on PS3 I believe, for DMC4 for instance? There you could see some of its limits - if you're not moving for instance, then there's no temporal change input to use for your AA. Same if there is too much movement I guess.

TAA is rendering regular and half-pixel shift each frame and blend, it best works when there is no motion (equivalent to 2xSSAA then).

I'd think it's more suitable for games with static camera instead of a cinematic FPS.

 

[Scott_Arm]

TAA is rendering regular and half-pixel shift each frame and blend, it best works when there is no motion (equivalent to 2xSSAA then).

I'd think it's more suitable for games with static camera instead of a cinematic FPS.

I guess the idea is you don't notice aliasing as much when you're moving, but I don't really like TAA as I've seen it so far. Most 2xMSAA implementations seem to break down. So far, despite its flaws, MLAA seems to be the best case, even though I'd rather see more done with physics and AI on the CPU side.

 

[corduroygt]

I do my gaming on a CRT monitor so LCDs ghosting, even in the newest sets is pretty noticeable to me.

I doubt that you've even gamed on a contemporary LCD

Not when you're scene is full of small polys. It works better sometimes, it works worse others.

You're not going to get a scene that's full of small polygons in modern FPS games since level designers work to minimize that case to begin with, regardless of the AA implementation. Temporal AA does not fix the shimmering issue with small objects when you're in motion either, so it's no better than MLAA even in that corner case. Having a lower resolution will also work towards exaggerating the AA issues that are already present.

So, in all cases MLAA@720p >>>> TAA@1152x720 for modern shooters, with all else being equal (which it never is)

 

[patsu]

I guess the idea is you don't notice aliasing as much when you're moving, but I don't really like TAA as I've seen it so far. Most 2xMSAA implementations seem to break down. So far, despite its flaws, MLAA seems to be the best case, even though I'd rather see more done with physics and AI on the CPU side.

I remember DF overlooked GT5's temporal AA because it's not noticeable in screenshots. People would be crying/laughing their heads off if KZ3 screenshots relied _solely_ on temporal AA. ^_^

 

[_phil_]

No temporal AA at all for close up objects in C2 ? So C2 is using a proprietary edge detect plus blur ? Is it an approximation to MLAA ?

they use the depth buffer to separate the 2 otherwise classic filtering technics.

 

[L. Scofield]

You mean Crytek's implementation? Crysis 2 Beta has more shimmering from sub-pixels and more aliased edges than MLAA in KZ 3, a lot more. You'll can see that with Your own eyes in about an hour ;]

The 360 demo seems to use regular TAA. The leaked PC version on the other hand looks remarkably clean.

You're not going to get a scene that's full of small polygons in modern FPS games since level designers work to minimize that case to begin with, regardless of the AA implementation.

That's certainly not the case here.

So, in all cases MLAA@720p >>>> TAA@1152x720 for modern shooters, with all else being equal (which it never is)

Saying it over and over again will not make it true. Trade-offs etc..

 

[corduroygt]

Saying it over and over again will not make it true. Trade-offs etc..

You're the only one here saying that TAA can compete with MLAA, while pretty much everyone else here, and tech articles from DF say the opposite. I doubt you've seen the PC gameplay first hand and not through a compressed video, and I doubt you've even played a modern shooter in a modern LCD.

 

[KKRT]

The 360 demo seems to use regular TAA. The leaked PC version on the other hand looks remarkably clean.

Check my last post in console Crysis topic.