scooby_dooby
Legend
Who's definition of adequate are we going by here?
You do feel bumps with the MS wheel, it has both rumble and FF, for example if you hit a rumble strip the wheel actually jerks in your hands.
GT 5 Prologue this fall, Gran Turismo 5 spring 2008
- Thread starter MasaC
- Start date
Who's definition of adequate are we going by here?
You do feel bumps with the MS wheel, it has both rumble and FF, for example if you hit a rumble strip the wheel actually jerks in your hands.
Are you trying to suggest that Forza 2 is better? Because it most certianly still falls short. For example it is ENTIRELY too easy to "regain" control of your car after you have lost traction on your tires.
You want my advice? Race real cars, because no simulator really comes close to everything, they find certain area's and emulate, but there is no simulation.
NovemberMike
Regular
I'm sure you are aware that you can tune cars in GT4, let alone change gear ratio's and such rather easily? I'm really not sure what you're trying to prove with this video...
What exactly are you going to tune to get an extra 200 kph out of a car? After a certain point the wind resistance should get obscene and you should be hitting a wall of air...
Apparently the idea of a bug is foreign to you? Again, I can promise you people will find ways to tune flaws out of Forza 2, and then what? Will you bag on that game as well?
No simulation is perfect, nor will they ever be. Forza 2, GT4, GT: HD, they're all far from it. I play simulations becuase I don't like the feel of arcade racers, not because I want a simulator. I get on a track in real life when I want (chuckle) real life action.
GT4 Arcade mode, 20% added power, 10% reduced weight. You know what kind of mad-ass car we're dealing with here right? A Le Mans cars that would today not pass modern day's requirements for that race.
And before you think it is easily done, just have a go at it yourself. Preferably with a wheel. You'll see. Holl01 still today holds many of the top rankings worldwide in GT:HD. He's one of the best.
As said, he doesn't acknowledge he's driving a different NSX (he could even have picked an Acura NSX in Gran Turismo if he wanted, but he didn't). Also, he is driving Arcade mode, not sim mode. Even then he could have picked road tires with tire damage on, but he hasn't. He's playing with the d-pad, which is heavily assisted, instead of the Driving Force Pro wheel.
But Clarkson also wrote this:
http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/jeremy_clarkson/article552096.ece
And:
Cold tires in GT and warm tires in RL? Everybody knows cold tires = less grip.
Models and parameters
Every physics model has an operational envelope outside of which things become non-sensical. People who are bashing GT4's physics model seem to have nothing better to cite than examples where people have obviously railed a parameter or two (or three) to ludicrous extremes. That's because within reasonable operating parameters, the GT4 physics model is quite stellar. Take an untuned production car from GT4's vast stable and see if there's anything wrong in how it handles. There might be a few quibbles, but every car in the game does feel very, very right.
Forza 2, on the other hand, feels or looks wrong on more occasions than GT4/GT:HD, even without venturing into the territory of ridiculously tuned parameters. The car suspension, for example, is quite poorly modeled. When a core component of handling such as suspension is poorly modeled, you know that there will be kludges in the rest of the physics model. But overall, the game still handles fairly well, and if I only had my 360, then it would be the best console racing game in my library.
Every physics model has an operational envelope outside of which things become non-sensical. People who are bashing GT4's physics model seem to have nothing better to cite than examples where people have obviously railed a parameter or two (or three) to ludicrous extremes. That's because within reasonable operating parameters, the GT4 physics model is quite stellar. Take an untuned production car from GT4's vast stable and see if there's anything wrong in how it handles. There might be a few quibbles, but every car in the game does feel very, very right.
Forza 2, on the other hand, feels or looks wrong on more occasions than GT4/GT:HD, even without venturing into the territory of ridiculously tuned parameters. The car suspension, for example, is quite poorly modeled. When a core component of handling such as suspension is poorly modeled, you know that there will be kludges in the rest of the physics model. But overall, the game still handles fairly well, and if I only had my 360, then it would be the best console racing game in my library.
Your not elaborating, your continiously bashing it without making any real examples. Don't say this and that is poorly modeled, say what makes it poorly modeled.
Whats the matter with the suspension? Car not leaning enough for your preferences after playing GT? Thats a complaint i allways hear from GT people.
Whats the matter with the suspension? Car not leaning enough for your preferences after playing GT? Thats a complaint i allways hear from GT people.
Forza 2's suspension model doesn't seem to take unsprung weight into account. The tires, wheels, control arms, etc. move over bumps as though they are massless. You can see this most vividly in replays when your car goes over the curb and grass. Without modeling the unsprung mass, you're not going to be able to model tire contact with the road accurately.
I wasn't refering to hitting a rumble strip, but the bumps that are very common on the Nordschleife and present in GT4. The definition of adequate in direct comparison with Logitech's driving force pro. It fairs a lot worse when you take the newer Logitech wheel into account. But we already have a topic on that...
NovemberMike said:
As Arwin already pointed out, it's arcade mode. And as I already mentioned, GT4 offers a wide range of options to artificially change the cars characteristics (i.e. making it lighter, enhancing it's topspeed, artificially adding downforce to front/back etc)...
Ostepop said:
What cold tires in GT? There are no cold tires - when the tires are blue, they're new (they don't go back to blue if you don't drive for a while). And in GT4, as well as in real life, warm tires offer better grip than cold, so I'm not really sure where you're getting that the cold tires offer better grip.
EDIT: Ah now I get your sentence! You mean even when the tires are marked blue in GT4 are you able to outcorner *your* car in reallife under what should be better conditions than in the game. Right?
In Forza 2 you can do Engine swaps again, so will be interesting to see how long it takes before someone does a great time in a Porsche with a Le Mans car engine or something similar.
At least the graphics show tirewear, but I'm not sure if temperature isn't in that mix somehow. If the graphics indicate a combination of cold and new, warm and worn, or if that isn't at least in the tire model but not in the graphics, that wouldn't surprise me either.
Well, driving a Subaru Impreza STI in GT4 does seem real to me.
You don't get the same sense of speed and acceleration you do in the real thing, but everything else seems to be OK as far as I'm concerned.
I really don't see the problem with the tyres, they clearly stated at one point if you want realistic levels of grip, then the simulation tyres are the ones you want.
You don't get the same sense of speed and acceleration you do in the real thing, but everything else seems to be OK as far as I'm concerned.
I really don't see the problem with the tyres, they clearly stated at one point if you want realistic levels of grip, then the simulation tyres are the ones you want.
Why do people keep talking about simulation tires in GT4? Unless I am missing something, they were only available in GT3. GT4 has three different types of Road Tires instead. Right? I consider myself a bit of a Gran Turismo expert, but now you guys have me doubting.
Yup
tkf, it's not a fabrication of mine. I've done the fanboy thing and have since gotten over it.
Apart from that, yes, the game is good. You get attached to your cars -a sensation you don't get with "other" racing games-.., you don't forget your first car and so on (Dan Greenawalt's first car in real life was a Mitsubishi 2000 that he bought because he loved it in Gran Turismo, his favourite game back in the time).
Also defenders of the game say that you feel like you are a part of something special.
That being said, physics are the wow factor for me... (AI and online -to a point- are also important)
Arwin, someone -who is the ultimate GT lover- told me that R5 tires have *excessive* grip at high speeds in turns. He used to play mind games that (unsuccessfully) made me out to be the mistaken guy and we got to the point of mutually ignoring each other. Now things are fine but he admitted that, which is odd of him.
I respect J. Clarkson a lot because he is amazing at what he does -so charismatic-, although he doesn't get specific enough.
With so many cars in the game I don't expect they can hand tune each car like the real thing. It does happen in Forza 2, too -Sagaris (unrealistic, stock car is too tail happy in the demo -fixable with some settings adjustments-) and Porsche (realistic) comes to mind-.
I remember D. Greenawalt mentioning that to tune each car like the real thing they should have to take into consideration up to 8000 variables.
Phil, the point is that sim racer purists may be less than pleased about the artificial arcadish features which aren't designed to show and give rise to player's individual skill. In Forza if you are talented enough to create a good setup you have an advantage there.
Getting great performance from good cars is not hard but subtle little changes in your car's setup can make a big difference between an adequate and a wonderful car, specially in tight races with similar or same cars. It's a feature now strengthened by the PI system.
DJ12, he takes the corners so fast (sometimes at 390 Km/h) you think he's going to crash, but he never loses control even when he touches the grass at 390 Km/h -not that good physics, so to speak-.
The game is good but not a true sim -for the time being-. I hope they do fix these things.
Naturally, I'll keep reading you guys (from the middle of nowhere),
to know how the game develops. I am really curious about this one.
Cheers.
PS: Sorry for not being more specific. I wrote this in a rush and I know I should have elaborated a bit more in regards to what I am referring to but I hope it's understandable.
Apart from that, yes, the game is good. You get attached to your cars -a sensation you don't get with "other" racing games-.., you don't forget your first car and so on (Dan Greenawalt's first car in real life was a Mitsubishi 2000 that he bought because he loved it in Gran Turismo, his favourite game back in the time).
Also defenders of the game say that you feel like you are a part of something special.
That being said, physics are the wow factor for me... (AI and online -to a point- are also important)
Arwin, someone -who is the ultimate GT lover- told me that R5 tires have *excessive* grip at high speeds in turns. He used to play mind games that (unsuccessfully) made me out to be the mistaken guy and we got to the point of mutually ignoring each other. Now things are fine but he admitted that, which is odd of him.
I respect J. Clarkson a lot because he is amazing at what he does -so charismatic-, although he doesn't get specific enough.
With so many cars in the game I don't expect they can hand tune each car like the real thing. It does happen in Forza 2, too -Sagaris (unrealistic, stock car is too tail happy in the demo -fixable with some settings adjustments-) and Porsche (realistic) comes to mind-.
I remember D. Greenawalt mentioning that to tune each car like the real thing they should have to take into consideration up to 8000 variables.
Phil, the point is that sim racer purists may be less than pleased about the artificial arcadish features which aren't designed to show and give rise to player's individual skill. In Forza if you are talented enough to create a good setup you have an advantage there.
Getting great performance from good cars is not hard but subtle little changes in your car's setup can make a big difference between an adequate and a wonderful car, specially in tight races with similar or same cars. It's a feature now strengthened by the PI system.
DJ12, he takes the corners so fast (sometimes at 390 Km/h) you think he's going to crash, but he never loses control even when he touches the grass at 390 Km/h -not that good physics, so to speak-.
The game is good but not a true sim -for the time being-. I hope they do fix these things.
Naturally, I'll keep reading you guys (from the middle of nowhere),
to know how the game develops. I am really curious about this one.Cheers.
PS: Sorry for not being more specific. I wrote this in a rush and I know I should have elaborated a bit more in regards to what I am referring to but I hope it's understandable.
Sorry 4 any confussion!
Just checked GT4, and i was totally wrong there are no sim tyres... whoops
N1-3 are ecconomy/ comfort/ road. And I think what I read (maybe from GT planet) was that the ecconomy tyres are equal to decent road tyres and the other two offer more drip than road tyres. Weird I know but maybe it was a bad translation from the Japanese version?
Anyway sorry 4 writting a load of ####### before.
Just checked GT4, and i was totally wrong there are no sim tyres... whoops
N1-3 are ecconomy/ comfort/ road. And I think what I read (maybe from GT planet) was that the ecconomy tyres are equal to decent road tyres and the other two offer more drip than road tyres. Weird I know but maybe it was a bad translation from the Japanese version?
Anyway sorry 4 writting a load of ####### before.
