Forza Motorsports 2 60fps, 4xAA, HDR, MB
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ihamoitc2005
Veteran
Nurburgring
They changed too much. Why is Forza track too long? Why is turns and heights wrong? Is this all for fun only?
Racing is acceleration and breaking for one point to one other point and Forza is very incorrect for this. So Forza 1 is not real simulation, maybe is like half simulation half arcade fun game, half GT4, half PGR2. So this is why GT4 can be training for real Nurburgring driving but Forza cannot be.
If you know who is Jeremy Clarkson (car tester for magazine) you can read his comments. I am sorry I have no link but maybe google will give you results.
Powderkeg said:
They changed too much. Why is Forza track too long? Why is turns and heights wrong? Is this all for fun only?
Racing is acceleration and breaking for one point to one other point and Forza is very incorrect for this. So Forza 1 is not real simulation, maybe is like half simulation half arcade fun game, half GT4, half PGR2. So this is why GT4 can be training for real Nurburgring driving but Forza cannot be.
If you know who is Jeremy Clarkson (car tester for magazine) you can read his comments. I am sorry I have no link but maybe google will give you results.
Mintmaster
Veteran
And how exactly do you know that? Do both games have an unmodified track that you've driven on with similar cars?ihamoitc2005 said:
A modified track does not make Forza a half-arcade game. They went through great lengths to get the simulation right, and I think a professional driver knows more than you or me.
try this in gt. you cant hing your tire in a gutter and have your car drift at a more pin point arc in GT but in forza you can. try a hairclip turn in gt4 and compare it to forza when you let one wheel hit the dirt and spin faster or slower then the other, you can get a faster turn just like in real life. but in gt4 if you have your front right wheel in a dip the whole front reacts the same way, aswell as the whole car moving forward with the drift. the left reacts the same with the right.
but if you did this same move in forza you get a diffrent effect the right wheel will actually hold spinning the left wheel off the ground with no tracktion and spin your back end forward. giving you a faster turn
but if you did this same move in forza you get a diffrent effect the right wheel will actually hold spinning the left wheel off the ground with no tracktion and spin your back end forward. giving you a faster turn
Mintmaster
Veteran
rounin, that's pretty cool, but it still doesn't mean that Forza behaves like an arcade racer, especially with PowderKeg's explanation of why the track was modified. The whole track was probably just scaled bigger to make more room.
I still can't get over the way GT4 handles motion in the air. It will apply a phantom force to prevent you from flipping over if one side of the car goes over a bump, and collisions are unrealistic. I know you shouldn't be hitting the wall or other cars, but in a long race everyone is prone to mistakes, and GT4 doesn't punish them, reducing the tension involved to avoid them.
The amount the car pitches forward during braking seems exaggerated in GT4 also, and that video shows it a lot. An M3 GTR isn't going to be 5 times as stiff as a Skyline GT-R.
Anyway, GT4 is still king of maximum realism with minimum graphics ability. No per-pixel lighting or anything, but they really know how to get the lighting right, and it's just baked vertex colours with a specular reflection on the road. Other devs (for all genres) can really learn from Polyphony here.
I still can't get over the way GT4 handles motion in the air. It will apply a phantom force to prevent you from flipping over if one side of the car goes over a bump, and collisions are unrealistic. I know you shouldn't be hitting the wall or other cars, but in a long race everyone is prone to mistakes, and GT4 doesn't punish them, reducing the tension involved to avoid them.
The amount the car pitches forward during braking seems exaggerated in GT4 also, and that video shows it a lot. An M3 GTR isn't going to be 5 times as stiff as a Skyline GT-R.
Anyway, GT4 is still king of maximum realism with minimum graphics ability. No per-pixel lighting or anything, but they really know how to get the lighting right, and it's just baked vertex colours with a specular reflection on the road. Other devs (for all genres) can really learn from Polyphony here.
ihamoitc2005
Veteran
Mintmaster said:
They advertise 13 miles but it is much bigger. Also, even turns are very wrong. This is not simple scaled bigger but big changes. Almost like different track. GT4 is almost perfect copy.
GT4 is about driving, not crashing. GT4 driving is like real sim and aerodynamic effect is very amazing for driving.
GT4 is not perfect but it has best weight change simulation for braking and turning. Forza is more easier but is not so realisitic.
Because of super smooth paint and high polygons I think maybe car does not need per pixel lighting. Vertex lighting is very good for cars. I think for dinosaur with complicated skin per pixel lighting can make very big difference no? What is amazing for GT4 graphics is amazing lighting and also frame-rate.
Mintmaster
Veteran
ihamoitc2005, you're making all these claims but have nothing to back it up. Look at AW0L's post, for example. Very concrete, very specific. You, on the other hand, sound like a PS marketing machine.
Again, how well they copied the track says nothing about the driving simulation or physics. And how do you know what the "aerodynamic effect" is like in real life or whether GT4 is modelling it correctly? Real aerodynamics would allow some prototype-class cars to take off and flip around if they went over a bump in a bad way. Real aerodynamics would do more than just give some canned air resistance and drafting effects.
You say GT4 is about driving and not crashing. Not being able to crash or damage your car allows you take a more aggressive line, take more risks, handle opponents differently, lets the computer players hit you without worry, etc. The magic forces that Sony provides to prevent flipping also impacts the driving simulation. All these things affect the driving experience, whether you crash or not.
GT4 is not the ultimate simulator you make it out to be.
Again, how well they copied the track says nothing about the driving simulation or physics. And how do you know what the "aerodynamic effect" is like in real life or whether GT4 is modelling it correctly? Real aerodynamics would allow some prototype-class cars to take off and flip around if they went over a bump in a bad way. Real aerodynamics would do more than just give some canned air resistance and drafting effects.
You say GT4 is about driving and not crashing. Not being able to crash or damage your car allows you take a more aggressive line, take more risks, handle opponents differently, lets the computer players hit you without worry, etc. The magic forces that Sony provides to prevent flipping also impacts the driving simulation. All these things affect the driving experience, whether you crash or not.
GT4 is not the ultimate simulator you make it out to be.
ihamoitc2005 said:
This was already in this thread, but the link is worth posting again: Professional drivers were impressed with Forza. (Comments from an amerateur start at 5:25; Comments from Gunner Jeannette, a professional racecar driver, at 6:00. The most interesting parts were the summary of Forza as "Very very close to real life" and comparing his Road Atlanta times: Quickest in RL 1:12.5, in the Game 1:12.9).
Forza is not perfect, but neither is GT (bumper cars ftw). Calling Forza a half sim is just... typical
Forza has better AI and nice damage modeling (which affects the visuals and the car mechanics) in addition to the solid physics and car customizations. And as a game it also offers online (which online racing with damage modeling can get harry... every bump could ruin your race so you have to be careful). Contact is a fact of life, whether one likes it or not. Forza has faults like I said; it had less detailed cars, fewer cars, had no Force Feedback support, and was at 30fps which annoys some. I love GT, it was the reason I bought a PS. But it has its own fair share of warts and short comings as a sim and as a game. It is great, but not perfect and a number of competitors have one upped it in a number of areas.ihamoitc2005 said:
well you should check out Top Gear episode when Jeremy was Testing NSX on Laguna Seca and compare times with Garn Tourismo, difference was like 20 seconds becouse of of different turns in game.
In other hands you can find video of Forza vs real time on Road Atlanta and check out how close they are.
czekon said:
Off topic, I know: That episode cracked me up. Clarkson was absolutely desperate to improve his time because his PS2 drive-through was so much better
Or maybe he stinks as a driver, anybody seen the episode where he gets creamed at Nürburgring by a chick in a van
Cheers
Found this on google:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3957295180541561683
Toca 3 is insane
this one's right on:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1429991638986419092
edit: saw that part now.
The difference was 16seconds and they said nothing about different turns. It was mostly about that the game had better brakes and in the game you're not afraid.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3957295180541561683
Toca 3 is insane
this one's right on:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1429991638986419092
edit: saw that part now.
The difference was 16seconds and they said nothing about different turns. It was mostly about that the game had better brakes and in the game you're not afraid.
Last edited by a moderator:
weaksauce said:
They did actually mention one turn (not a big one but it still meant slowing down) missing in the game, unless you've been watching a different video. But yes, one of the biggest factors remains the fact that Laguna is a very scary track, and driving a real car is really quite a different feeling.
I've driven on the Nurburgring first in the BMW demo (GT4 pre-release), and then on the real track using a similarly specced car and I was utterly stupified. I really just new the track.
Having said that, I do really hope that Forza 2 picks up the pace and improves. Now that they have a proper Force Feedback wheel we can compare the two games much better. Playing GT4 with a DS2 or with the Driving Force Pro made for a really big difference. You can't really appreciate a game's physics using a standard controller. Once Forza 2 gets out we will be able to compare it with GT4 properly.
(et voila, we're back on topic)
Gubbi said:Or maybe he stinks as a driver, anybody seen the episode where he gets creamed at Nürburgring by a chick in a van
To be fair, that chick makes a living from driving around the Nürburgring, she's an absolute professional, whereas Clarkson is 'just' a journalist...
MechanizedDeath
Regular
Mintmaster said:
Even if manufacturers allowed their cars to be flipped, it's an incredibly miniscule part of racing. Even in short track outlaw/midget races, where it's most common, it's still not that big a part of racing. For full-bodied cars, you can only flip them by hitting something really hard, or catching an edge on grass/gravel. For open-wheelers, you have to touch tires. Most race/modified cars have low CG.
As for damage, why not have it completely realistic and make a crash just end a race. Papyrus had it right, even if it was extremely frustrating. You wreck, you pretty much go home. Bumping and banging fenders is one thing. Hitting part of the scenery should be an automatic golf cart to the pits. PEACE.