Forza Motorsports 2 60fps, 4xAA, HDR, MB

[Arwin]

"It would not have been possible to make this racing game without the awesome power of 360. It enables us to give the players feedback into the next gen gaming world which we could only dream of before."
-devs

Translation: we had to nag long and hard, and beg, and crawl, and whine, but finally ... FINALLY we convinced Microsoft that we really, REALLY had to have Force Feedback available for Forza 2. Microsoft complained and whined and nagged and sulked that because they use a closed driver system with DirectX, so that if they included the driver, they had to pay licence fees for every 360 sold. So they weren't going to until finally Peter Moore read the comments on Eurogamer.net from guys like Arwin that as long as no Xbox machines support true Force FeedbackTM, he and his elite driving fellows could never consider the Xbox a serious racing platform, and Forza 2 wouldn't be able to beat GT4 even if it had the Nurburgring modelled to within 3 millimeter, the shiniest rims, and the coolest Grafixors. When we heard the good news at E3, we and our pals at Logitech and from the PGR3 team went to the pub, pulled an all-nighter, and then had to wait for 9 months for the first beta-driver.



(for the record, I'm rooting for Forza 2 to be a great game! There are never enough great racing games on the planet But some guys just go overboard in their ways of the F-B)

 

[bRoNx]

As a matter of fact, all PD ever said is that they never included car damage simply because all the car manufacturers featured in the game wouldn't come to a common agreement. I have never heard (read) of PD saying they couldn't do it because of some "lack of power", which in itself is rather silly.

Well now you have!!!

One of the reasons it would be difficult to include damage is that, because Gran Turismo is a real driving simulator, we would have to consider damage to be real. I have done experiments, and a very high percentage - maybe 80 percent - of crashes in Gran Turismo would smash the car into pieces maybe two inches big.

Current specifications of the hardware will not allow us to represent this fully. If the specs are higher, then maybe, but then again, there are also other issues with manufacturers, licence issues. there are many hurdles we must get over. It's not all manufacturers, but there is a trend generally speaking that manufacturers have become a little bit more lenient towards the direction we would like to head, in terms of allowing for damage on cars in games. You do see that in other games - there are ways - it's just that with the range of cars we have, it's more difficult.

And if you remember some of the reviews of the game, they kinda hinted at the fact that GT4 sorta maxed out the PS2...but then again, that's the reviewers opinion.

Anyways, just wanted to point out this article (although it's not the actual one I remember reading) to you LB, because it supports my original post. There's other factors too no doubt, but here's one.

It just goes to show people will argue almost any point, no matter how ridiculous, when it comes to their favourite franchise on the preferred machine. Damage modelling is a good thing, GT4 missed the boat by not having it (yes, deal with it) and the PD team has stated they want it for GT5. Why are we still arguing about this?

Calm down son. No one's arguing. You're turning this into a fanboi trying to defend the honour of Gran Turismo, when in actual fact...well, read above^.

Edit: Too late, Johnny Awesome's already dropped the "F" bomb!

 

[Acert93]

Nurburgring all-time track record in it's current configuration is 6 minutes, 40 seconds. In almost 20 years no car of any kind has ever run a lap faster than that.

Now, how many people here have managed sub-6 minute laps in GT4? I know I sure have.

And that is an issue for a sim. As Ars says:

Comparing the tracks that they share, I'd have to award Forza the points for realism. Using almost identical cars, the lap times recorded on the Xbox match up much more closely to what could be expected in the real world, and the fact that gamers are setting lap times just under five minutes on the PS2 subtract somewhat from the simulator aspect of the game.

If you've played GT before, I believe you're going to love Forza. The physics and handling are better in many respects, different in others.

I think different is the catch.

If you play a frachise for 10 years, getting something different all of a sudden can seem bad--even if it is neutral. PERFECT example: Madden vs. NFL 2K. NFL 2K was a better game in many, many aspects of football. But Madden was more familiar and Madden fans had a hard time conceeding ANY points about the merits of NFL 2K. I am a Madden fan, I prefer Madden's style, but IMO the NFL 2K guys had it right in many ways.

What this boils down to is where a gamers preferences and *experience* are. I come from a GT background myself. But I must admit after playing a lot of Toca 3 that online, solid AI, and damage modeling are waaaay more important to me. I can overlook buying a ton of cars for those core game features.

Some will agree, some will disagree, and others wont even consider the points. But I think any fair person would conceed that Forza and GT both have strong points and some weak points and that depending on your preferences and how broad or narrow those are will impact which game you prefer. If you demand challenging AI and online play, well it is a no brainer. If you demand FF, then it is a no brainer.

But picking 1 aspect and superimposing it across the industry as the defining hallmark of what a game should be... is basically sying, "I have played franchise X for years and anything different sucks". Realizing the breadth of the market, and also the difficulty and vastness of sims and how we are only nibling away slowly at all the various elements of reality should bring us back to reality.

Only then can we compare Forza 2 with GT4.

Wow. I bet you would have a cow if someone said, "GT4 is not a sim until it has damage modeling, and until then it cannot even be compared to Forza". Wheels are expensive and while I do consider them a very valid point in regards to the big picture, dismissing a game because it does not support a perephrial?

As a matter of fact, all PD ever said is that they never included car damage simply because all the car manufacturers featured in the game wouldn't come to a common agreement. I have never heard (read) of PD saying they couldn't do it because of some "lack of power", which in itself is rather silly.

Powderkeg was only responding to bRoNx's statement that PD did not include damage modelling bedcause it could not do it realistically. Just clarifying Powderkeg is not the bad guy... this time!

 

[scooby_dooby]

Well now you have!!!

That's some pretty bad selective reading you have there. Specs were but one of the issues preventing damage modeling:

If the specs are higher, then maybe, but then again, there are also other issues with manufacturers, licence issues. there are many hurdles we must get over.

As for 'no-one arguing' you must be reading a different thread than the rest of us.

 

[bRoNx]

That's some pretty bad selective reading you have there. Specs were but one of the issues preventing damage modeling

You're right. Which is why I said:

Anyways, just wanted to point out this article (although it's not the actual one I remember reading) to you LB, because it supports my original post. There's other factors too no doubt, but here's one

Selective reading...?

**********ANYWHOOOO!***********

Look, how about we drop GT4 from this thread, and get back to Forza 2?

 

[scooby_dooby]

If they'd give us some damn media!!

 

[Tap In]

Week 4 Pit Pass update

http://forzamotorsport.net/devcorner/pitpass/pitpass04.htm

Forza Motorsport 2 so complex in its design, that I'm literally still just learning of new features in the game each week. Maybe I shouldn't even call these "features," as they're more like "awesome little touches" that populate every nook and cranny of FM2's design. In this case, our particular meeting was about new multiplayer features and how we could tie some of that back into Forzamotorsport.net so that the site becomes an essential component of FM2's online gaming experience. And so as the guy responsible for figuring out how the site works with the game, I was dealt some fairly minute details about the nature of FM2's multiplayer features; as always, I can't talk about 'em, but let me just say that there are some very cool tools in place that will help make the FM2 community a healthy and thriving one. Okay, so now you know -- this site will be redesigned/relaunched at some point. That's all I can say -- for now.

In last week's Pitpass Report, I mentioned that the team was busting ass on finishing a build to use for licensing purposes, meaning that we have to show manufacturers what the final car models will look like in their pristine and damaged forms. If they like what they see -- everybody happy. If not, our 3D vehicle artists bear the brunt of the revisionist labor.

Audio Antics

This week, test engineer and Turn 10's very own MacGuyver, Joel Robinson, finished the audio team's recording of a real supercharger. You might think it's as easy as putting a supercharged car on a dyno and sticking a mic into its engine bay -- but oh ho, how wrong you are. I won't get into too much detail here (because I will make a separate story out of it sometime next week), but let's just say Joel (and some helpful mechanics) literally built a supercharger contraption strapped to a silent high-revving motor so that we could capture the pure, untainted scream of a real-life supercharger and stick it in the game.

 

[Arwin]

And that is an issue for a sim. As Ars says:

Not quite fair. As was one of the most important conclusions from the comparison that Top Gear did on Laguna (although it was flawed imho, Clarkson didn't even use the same cars and didn't even mention if he fitted road cars - the gamer part of such comparisons should, like the real racing parts, be coached by professionnals - not to mention: GET A WHEEL), fear is a major factor in time differences. The way you need to drive on the Ring to get that time, you'll only attempt it if you are suicidal and you'll never get away with it. Nobody got that time without pushing it beyond their own limits and several times crashing. Perhaps if you had a 80% savegame, and you could die in the game and if you did, the game would instantly delete your savegame, it would help a little with the realism. I have been to the ring and it is just insane. There are inclines there that made me wonder whether my car would make it up there at all. It's awesome to drive there though.

I frequent German forums quite a bit (I'm not German myself, but Dutch), and like me, many of them have actually been to the Ring. Many of them also get all games that feature this track. If you do go to the track, you will see that the track in GT4 matches the real one very well.

I think different is the catch.

Of course, this is true. I have always tried to be precise - the feeling of driving a car, and for me that has to include the driving force pro wheel, is awesome in Gran Turismo. I'm particularly impressed by the different drive types, and most of all by FF, which is after all the one I've got the most experience with. The feeling you get from being on the verge of losing grip, with the wheels slipping just momentarily, is incredibly convincing.

But other people rather die than drive an FF car in a game. I love the feeling of racing, others only care about damage. I love online racing, but having been spoilt with using a proper wheel, I can't go back - and I have tried! I got most racing games on my Xbox. And so for my online fun, I've had to seek refuge to the PC - no Xbox game has been able to keep my attention for more than 2 weeks. But others love being able to pimp their rides on Forza 2, and I think it's a great feature - I just don't even tune my cars a lot in Gran Turismo. I've done so in GTR 2002 (settings), because if you wanted to be able to compete, working with the correct tire pressures and such was really important. But I really prefer being able to concentrate fully on the driving pur sang. I'm not a mechanic (though sometimes I wish I was).

If you play a frachise for 10 years, getting something different all of a sudden can seem bad--even if it is neutral. PERFECT example: Madden vs. NFL 2K. NFL 2K was a better game in many, many aspects of football. But Madden was more familiar and Madden fans had a hard time conceeding ANY points about the merits of NFL 2K. I am a Madden fan, I prefer Madden's style, but IMO the NFL 2K guys had it right in many ways.

You have a good point, but it only holds if Gran Turismo were the only game I played. But I've in fact played a great deal of racing games, over 15+ years (starting with Indy 500 and Geoff Crammond's Grand Prix).

What this boils down to is where a gamers preferences and *experience* are. I come from a GT background myself. But I must admit after playing a lot of Toca 3 that online, solid AI, and damage modeling are waaaay more important to me. I can overlook buying a ton of cars for those core game features.

And many people fully agree with you. For me the online is very important also, although I do get my fix from GT4 LAN parties, which I attend at least 2 times a year, and I've hosted several.

Some will agree, some will disagree, and others wont even consider the points. But I think any fair person would conceed that Forza and GT both have strong points and some weak points and that depending on your preferences and how broad or narrow those are will impact which game you prefer. If you demand challenging AI and online play, well it is a no brainer. If you demand FF, then it is a no brainer.

Agreed.

But picking 1 aspect and superimposing it across the industry as the defining hallmark of what a game should be... is basically sying, "I have played franchise X for years and anything different sucks". Realizing the breadth of the market, and also the difficulty and vastness of sims and how we are only nibling away slowly at all the various elements of reality should bring us back to reality.

Just to be clear, I hope you don't think I'm doing this.

Wow. I bet you would have a cow if someone said, "GT4 is not a sim until it has damage modeling, and until then it cannot even be compared to Forza". Wheels are expensive and while I do consider them a very valid point in regards to the big picture, dismissing a game because it does not support a perephrial?

For me, if we are talking about driving simulations, I'm thinking about the simulation of driving. The DF Pro wheel is about 100 euros these days. Small investment for me, as I get hours and hours of play out of my driving games. I want the best feeling that the game can offer me. By supporting the wheel, Gran Turismo is able to offer me an incredibly lot more. I drove Gran Turismo 2 with a wheel.

There are, conversely, still people who swear by playing using the controller. This is what they are used to. If you go to our LAN parties though, over the years you see all the fast guys move to the wheel. It's not necessarily faster, but it's just that much more fun, and gives you a lot more control as well which is good in dogfights.

Powderkeg was only responding to bRoNx's statement that PD did not include damage modelling bedcause it could not do it realistically. Just clarifying Powderkeg is not the bad guy... this time!

Look, I really, honestly, don't like damage modelling, especially in competitive racing (our LAN parties always feature a big competition on Saturday). When playing a game that is about skill, I don't want any element of lottery in it. Damage modelling brings that in there. Sure, you have some influence on what happens to your car yourself, but if someone else forgets to brake while you don't, he takes you out and it sucks. This is an element of racing I don't care for.

On the other hand, if we can add something that makes sure that the guy who rear-ends you gets the penalty and you can drive on, I'm all for it. If you can do that through some clever selective damage modelling, fine! But you get my drift. I'm the kind of guy who wants camera referees backing up the real ones in soccer so that noone gets away with a faul and noone is fauled unfairly. The skill of faking a faul and fooling the referee should not add to your sportsmanship, should not have to be an essential part of your soccer skills.

Having said that, I don't deny that having damage can heighten the tension in races. It would be great to have it as a choice, so you can do that sometimes, but don't have to.

But it is not as essential to me as, say, online racing. I love online racing. When Forza 2 is close to GT4 with the Driving Force Pro wheel, there is a very good chance that I will get the 360 for this game alone. For the same reason, I don't care much about AI either - it would be nice if they're decent and intelligent, but if I can choose between AI and online, give me online anytime (assuming I can find half decent people to race with, but that is usually not a big problem - I can find them in real life, and online it has been even easier so far).

So what I'm looking for in Forza 2 is two things:

1. a convincing feeling of driving a car (preferably from the whole spectrum - online races with slower cars can be great fun, one of the best fun we've had was with the Mini Mod for F1C/2002 for instance, or Lan party races with Mini Coopers on Monaco in GT)

2. great online racing with as many cars on track as possible

In that order. You can divide up my comments above into these two categories.

For 1, my wish-list is:
- an FF wheel (nothing gives you a more convincing feeling than having a wheel in your hands)
- great matching physics and matching tuning options in terms of stuff that actually influences your car's behaviour (think tires and such)
- realistic looking cars and tracks
- great replay mode (in which I can see the physics working and get feedback on my cars behaviour and my own driving style, and just enjoy the realistic looking cars and tracks)

For 2, my wish-list is:
- being able to set as many race parameters as possible. (one car type, fixed or no modifications, wheel or controller users only, tire type, race length, etc. - you don't have to use them all, but being able to really helps)
- realistic implementation of pit-stops, tire changes, fuel intake. Even if it is just being able to choose your tire type and amount of fuel intake, that'd be great.
- being able to save replays of online races

I think that covers the essentials. Your mileage may vary.

(some winks deleted)

 

[TheChefO]

But some guys just go overboard in their ways of the F-B)

Hey just havin a bit of fun with the "couldn't be done without" statements flying around here lately.

 

[ihamoitc2005]

Friendly

ihamtoic's arguments are ridiculous and pretty much boil down to what Scooby said: F anboy attraction to all things Sony.

There is no need for this kind of comment my friend. Let us have disagreement with normal conversations.

 

[Powderkeg]

And that is an issue for a sim. As Ars says:

Not quite fair. As was one of the most important conclusions from the comparison that Top Gear did on Laguna (although it was flawed imho, Clarkson didn't even use the same cars and didn't even mention if he fitted road cars - the gamer part of such comparisons should, like the real racing parts, be coached by professionnals - not to mention: GET A WHEEL), fear is a major factor in time differences. The way you need to drive on the Ring to get that time, you'll only attempt it if you are suicidal and you'll never get away with it. Nobody got that time without pushing it beyond their own limits and several times crashing.

That's an extremely weak excuse, as if GT4 were an accurate simulation then even the most hair-raising, absolute on the edge driving would yeild less than a tenth of a second improvement in corners.

Professional race car drivers spend their whole careers learning how to expertly push their cars to the absolute limits. No way is some amature going to come in and knock off almost 2 minutes in a single lap from the worlds best time set by a professional driver if the car and track are being accurately simulated. Even in the best case scenario it's doubtful you would achieve over a 10 second improvement vs. the real-life record.

 

[Paul_G]

If they can support force feedback through a driver that is included on the game disc, then even if Force Feedback would requite a licence from Immersion, it wouldn't have to be purchased for every console.

I know we're straying off topic here, but if that were possible, would the forza developers not have done that too? It's the same situation, console does not support FF, and if Forza didn't have it, i'm sure that's not because they didn't want it, but because they couldn't have it. The same then would be true for PD, so GT5 or whatever their next game is may not have FF.

Someone please tell me if i'm being stupid about this

 

[rabidrabbit]

GT here Gt there, can't you guys be enthused about an xbox game without comparing it to a PS game and feeling better if a PS game is inferior in some area.

 

[Hardknock]

GT here Gt there, can't you guys be enthused about an xbox game without comparing it to a PS game and feeling better if a PS game is inferior in some area.

Uhh, the first post that started this mess was saying that GT was more realistic than Forza and not the other way around. But yeah, this needs to stop.

 

[rabidrabbit]

Well, I'm sure Forza 2 will be more realistic than GT4.
When both GT5 for PS3 and Forza 2 are available, then we can start a new thread dedicated for comparing the benefits of both.

 

[Arwin]

I know we're straying off topic here, but if that were possible, would the forza developers not have done that too? It's the same situation, console does not support FF, and if Forza didn't have it, i'm sure that's not because they didn't want it, but because they couldn't have it. The same then would be true for PD, so GT5 or whatever their next game is may not have FF.

Someone please tell me if i'm being stupid about this

The way I understand it, the Xbox never allowed third party drivers to be loaded. They were either present in DirectX on the Xbox, or they weren't, and that meant you either had support for your peripheral through DirectX or you didn't, from day one of the Xbox's release. Someone correct me if I'm wrong about this.

@Powderkeg: it's not nearly as ridiciulous as claiming that laptimes prove Forza is more realistic, when the track isn't comparable to real life - it is not even the same length! In Forza it is scaled wrong and ends up being 4 miles longer. It also has a few other details wrong. Nevertheless, it's definitely not ugly.

See for instance: http://www.seight.com/ring-sims.html

Why GT4 nevertheless gets such great laptimes, has to do much with the nature of being able to play on a console.

In GT4, a driver would take the best tires, switch off tirewear, and then run as much as he likes to get a good laptime, in various cars, etc.

Just look at this video comparison of GT4 and real life (in the same season ... !).

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1429991638986419092

Now even in this video, you can see why a GT4 driver will get better laptimes. For instance, you can consistently work to try to get the best out of any type of curb, something that would kill your tires in a real car. Most comparisons aren't even done with tire wear, let alone much consideration of real tires.

No driver in real life has the kind of resources you have in a game, really, and super softs that don't wear don't exist yet. There are a lot of variables that count here. Let's not be too childish about this. If you want to compare the best laptimes for, say, a Civic, then consider what tires you are using cf real life (very few people actually put road tires on road cars in GT, but they make a huge difference in terms of handling), and put tire wear on (I'm not sure which setting - light or strong - is more realistic).

Anyway, hopefully Forza 2 gets the scaling right. It should be awesome to see a next-gen Nurburgring and it seems rather likely that Forza 2 will be the first next-gen Nurburgring out there with any degree of realism. Hopefully they fixed the problems in their previous games, and I can't wait to try force feedback wheels with that game.

 

[czekon]

i think it would be a good idea to have a better tools for making custom decals. I think i had read somewhere that it will be possible to transfer a design from forza to PC and change it with pc tools ( photoshop??) and transfer it back to game. It would be very cool and simple way to make a great decals.

 

[Paul_G]

I have forgotten some of the things you could do in forza decal wise, but i remember it being really fiddly imo. If it wasn't already in there and i just didn't see it, a tool to make a design symmetrical would be nice, you pick the half of the car to mirror, and if it's an exact mirror (so even logos get flipped) or a design mirror (logos stay the right way round). Also didn't you have to effectively create characters yourself from basic shapes? A set of characters and fonts would be nice.

 

[Powderkeg]

The way I understand it, the Xbox never allowed third party drivers to be loaded. They were either present in DirectX on the Xbox, or they weren't, and that meant you either had support for your peripheral through DirectX or you didn't, from day one of the Xbox's release. Someone correct me if I'm wrong about this.

I don't believe the drivers for the Steel Batallion controller shipped with the system. I'm pretty sure support for the controller was written into the game, which wouldn't work without the controller.

@Powderkeg: it's not nearly as ridiciulous as claiming that laptimes prove Forza is more realistic, when the track isn't comparable to real life - it is not even the same length!

Agreed, which is why I never made such a claim.

Why GT4 nevertheless gets such great laptimes, has to do much with the nature of being able to play on a console.

In GT4, a driver would take the best tires, switch off tirewear, and then run as much as he likes to get a good laptime, in various cars, etc.

Just look at this video comparison of GT4 and real life (in the same season ... !).

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1429991638986419092

Now even in this video, you can see why a GT4 driver will get better laptimes. For instance, you can consistently work to try to get the best out of any type of curb, something that would kill your tires in a real car. Most comparisons aren't even done with tire wear, let alone much consideration of real tires.

No driver in real life has the kind of resources you have in a game, really, and super softs that don't wear don't exist yet.

You don't watch much racing, do you?

Most racing series use this thing called Qualifying Tires. Qualifying tires are a special set of tires made just to run 2-3 laps and then are thrown away.

So, your whole point is fundamentally flawed in that real racing cars do run a single fast lap using a set of tires that they don't care about wearing out on that one lap.


And even if they didn't, 2 minutes in a single lap is just not possible. Have you even done the math on that? How much higher your average lap speed would have to be to run 13 miles 2 minutes faster than the lap record? How many G's you would have to pull off in corners to maintain the speed necessary to pull that off?

But you are right about one thing. GT4 has magical tires that deliver a level of performance that does not exist in the real world. No real tire is even remotely close.

But that's not exactly an arguement for it's accuracy as a sim, is it?

 

[Farid]

Thread Pruned From the Name Calling

Let's discuss about Forza Motorsports 2 only, shall we.

By the way, name calling is aboslutely not tolerated, posts with name calling were only pruned this time around. But this time around, only.

If you consider a post as being Off Topic, report it as this, do not start answering to post you consider OT and then turn the whole thing into a mudslinging and passive agressive contest. That will only add static to the thread.