Forza Motorsports 2 60fps, 4xAA, HDR, MB

[Gubbi]

Data restrictions can be placed to gut the topo and gain efficiency. WRT gps - Only when tied with other ground based measures is gps useful but its accuracy/consistancy alone is nowhere near the centemeter level (I work for an engineering company) but for this application (track modeling) it is quite pointless as it's advantages aren't realized in this instance. The laser based topography in combination with aerial photography would be more beneficial for their purposes.

My uncle is a surveyor and he uses GPS all the time to get starting/reference points.

It's not one of those small gadgets you plug into your PDA when driving around in your car though, it's a big circular disc thingy on a tripod. And they let it sit and average signals over 15 minutes before taking measurements. Apparently it's also important that it has a wide field of view for the sky, - to get signals from as many satellites as possible.

They get down to sub 10-cm precision out of the thing.

Cheers

 

[TheChefO]

They get down to sub 10-cm precision out of the thing.

Only when rectified to other ground based objects. Without rectification the gps is useless for that kind of accuracy. This is beside the point for this application though, as the need to know where the track is in the real world (coordinates) is not necesary.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Totally off topic, but when the EU system come online? I thought that was suppoesd to be a lot more accurate.

 

[Paul_G]

Totally off topic, but when the EU system come online? I thought that was suppoesd to be a lot more accurate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_positioning_system

According to wikipedia, it's due to run in 2010, it is capable of accuracy of <1m, compared to gps, which according to a related article, can achieve real world results accuate to about 15m, i've not read all the way through, there appear to be a few tricks with the gps system to get more than that, but the best thing about galileo is that it is not controlled by the military, so while GPS may well be able to achieve similar results, it's locked down and isn't available to us.

 

[Bigus Dickus]

Look, I really, honestly, don't like damage modelling, especially in competitive racing (our LAN parties always feature a big competition on Saturday). When playing a game that is about skill, I don't want any element of lottery in it. Damage modelling brings that in there. Sure, you have some influence on what happens to your car yourself, but if someone else forgets to brake while you don't, he takes you out and it sucks. This is an element of racing I don't care for.

Erm, not to intentionally be a prick, but that's kinda the essence of racing, ya know? If you don't want the actions of the other drivers to affect your result, may I suggest something more along the lines of slot racing?

It sounds to me like what you really enjoy is a fun arcade-style game involving cars competing head to head, with good car physics. Which is cool... there millions of other people who enjoy just that very thing.

And then there are racing fanatics. They actually enjoy racing - and all that the sport entails. For them (not sure I include myself in that group to be honest), a good racing simulation should try to include as much of the essence of racing as possible. And you'd better believe that what the other drivers do around you is an essential part of racing. Many a race has been won not because the driver (and/or car) was capable of the fastest qualifying time, but rather that the driver was best able to cope with the reality of race day, and the reality of being surrounded by dozens of other drivers hellbent on winning. There's some strategy involved there that is missing if the other drivers don't matter, and that's just the truth.

You know, there is a saying that covers pretty much everything you said you don't like about a racing sim... my memory might be bad, but I think it goes something like "That's Racing!"

 

[scooby_dooby]

but if someone else forgets to brake while you don't, he takes you out and it sucks. This is an element of racing I don't care for.

Comments like this only show that you have not played these types of games to any great extent.

This is not what happens in the course of the game, people are not throwing their brakes on in an attempt to damage your car. It's simply not an issue, by doing this the other person is also taking themselves out of the race as well as you, and if you're driving correctly, and brake immediately, the damage would be minimal anyways, making it a pointless tactic that no-one in real life uses to win races

It simply makes it more realistic, you try not to ride someone's ass 6inches from their bumper, because you that if something happens you're screwed. Although, there are times when you will take that risk, and other times when you will decide to play it safe, this all adds to teh play dynamics. You have to drive defensively, and try not to put yourself in situations where you're at risk. Now, of course this all happens very instinctively, and subconciously, so the end result is simply a more engaging, more stressful, more realistic experience.

There is no sense of 'lottery' though there is the realism where if you put yourself in the wrong spot, and a mistake happens, you might suffer the consequences. Most of the time, you could have avoided the situation by being more aware, and driving a better line.

Games without damage modelling are much worse in this regard as it doesn't punish damage, meaning someone can T-bone your car as you are taking a corner, something that you can not really avoid (as opposed to front end collisions which you can avoid with skill) and that same person can speed away unscathed and go on to win the race. Try that in forza, and sure you would be out of the race, but so would he, and as a result, everybody is VERY careful around turns, and goes to great care NOT to hit other cars just like in real life. The there's the whole wall-bouncing thing, which is an aspect of racing that I certainly don't appreciate.

 

[darkblu]

Erm, not to intentionally be a prick, but that's kinda the essence of racing, ya know? If you don't want the actions of the other drivers to affect your result, may I suggest something more along the lines of slot racing?

It sounds to me like what you really enjoy is a fun arcade-style game involving cars competing head to head, with good car physics. Which is cool... there millions of other people who enjoy just that very thing.

And then there are racing fanatics. They actually enjoy racing - and all that the sport entails. For them (not sure I include myself in that group to be honest), a good racing simulation should try to include as much of the essence of racing as possible. And you'd better believe that what the other drivers do around you is an essential part of racing. Many a race has been won not because the driver (and/or car) was capable of the fastest qualifying time, but rather that the driver was best able to cope with the reality of race day, and the reality of being surrounded by dozens of other drivers hellbent on winning. There's some strategy involved there that is missing if the other drivers don't matter, and that's just the truth.

You know, there is a saying that covers pretty much everything you said you don't like about a racing sim... my memory might be bad, but I think it goes something like "That's Racing!"

yes, Bigus, point is, though, that in real racing you as much as touch somebody big bad judges come after your ass (unless it's that destruction derby know as nascar). so regardless of how complex and crowded the situation on the track is you're required to handle it flowlessly, and situations like 'oops, there goes your spoiler, sucker, see you next lap' are as close to racing reality as 6year-olds playing with matchbox models.

it's like arguing 'since fatal injuries happen in motorsports, let's have our games kill your avatar in the race when crashing, but then you don't really die but restart the race with the same original conditions' - whereas by all sense you should be off the track for the rest of eternity.

when speaking of penalties and realism games like toca rd 3 and enthusia are way closer to the real-life penalisations than forza will ever aim to be. and gt is honestly not even trying - it's basically left to the players' discretion to call it a black flag.

so if i'm presented with the choice - a certain amount of development resources can be spent on either:
a) introducing some sort of damage simulation (read: with totally bogus penalisation), or
b) further improve on the individual car-vs-road simulation

i'd without much hesitation choose option b

 

[scooby_dooby]

a) introducing some sort of damage simulation (read: with totally bogus penalisation), or
b) further improve on the individual car-vs-road simulation

i'd without much hesitation choose option b

Too bad the develors of GT5 and Forza 2, the two premiere console driving simulators, completely disagree with you. Looks like you're on your own with that opinion.

No one wants some sort of draconian, realistic penalty system that would do nothing but add aggravation to the game. What we (Polyphony included) want are cars that are not made out of indestructable admantium, because that has too many negative impacts on gameplay like repeatedly bouncing off walls and repeatedly striking other cars which ruins the realism.

You're basically saying: If I can't have a 100% realistic penalty system, then I would like to be able to hit anything anytime without incurring any damage. I really don't get your logic. Although damage modelling might not be necessary in your opinion of what racing should be, it's still FAR more realistic than the alternative which is doing absolutely nothing and having indestructable cars with dozens of collisions every single lap.

 

[darkblu]

No one wants some sort of draconian, realistic penalty system that would do nothing but add aggravation to the game.

wrong. people who want to participate in a _simulated_race_ would want draconian penalties because that's what you get in a real race.

people who want something else play something else, i.e. when i want spectacular crashes i play burnout, when i want out-of-this-world drifting i play ridge racer.

What we (Polyphony included) want are cars that are not made out of indestructable admantium, because that has too many negative impacts on gameplay like repeatedly bouncing off walls and repeatedly striking other cars which ruins the realism.

no, when people who are in for the simulations play gt they do their best not to bump into anything, and if they still bump they call it a black flag. they don't say 'eerm, i just bumped rough, but my merry-go-happy "damage simulation" report says it's ok if i carry on, so for the fun of it i'll carry on'.

 

[scooby_dooby]

wrong. people who want to participate in a _simulated_race_ would want draconian penalties because that's what you get in a real race.

What about people who want _simulated_driving_? These aren't race simulators(i.e. they don't simulate the rules of a race), they're driving simulators. Oh well. No need to argue this, we're getting damage modeling in both my favourtie sims, and I guess you're just gonna have to suck it up, because its happening.

Hopefully this can be the end of the stupid damage modelling debates, both sims are implementing it, both sims will have it in their next iteration, so what's the point in arguing about it? If you hate it so much, don't buy GT5!

 

[pipo]

New interview: http://www.xboxworld.com.au/articles/interviews/forza-2-interview---xbw-microsoft-game-studios.htm

We consult with top automotive engineers and professional race car drivers to create the most complete racing experience available. Our advanced tire and suspension models were built to be future-proof. The tire physics model alone took us over three months to develop and tune for the original Forza Motorsport. They respond to heat and pressure changes as well as weight transfer and aerodynamic load.

The increased power of Xbox 360 has allowed us to showcase our incredible physics engine to even greater effect. The physics will still be running at extremely high frequencies (180-360 fps). Some systems are now running even faster. We felt the bumpy nature of tracks like Sebring in North America required running the physics at rates we've never seen in any other game. I think the biggest change that most players will notice is the increase in the graphical framerate.