First Killzone screenshot/details? So says USAToday..

[nAo]

There's always talk of "hey, just account for that in your tessellation code", but I have yet to see this done on a shipping game.

Don't look at games, look at CGI movies.
A solved problem means that you have an algorithm to handle it or a general idea, but implemenentation can be hard.
When I say something like "just account for that in your metric" it means that you add a term to your metric that takes care of a specific situation, usually is not that hard, though it still does not mean that can run in realtime.

Even in all the latest and greatest console games, take a peek at screen shots and you still see edges on silhouettes. This leads me to believe that:

a) no one has figured out how to smooth silhouettes
b) people have figured it out, and but cant get it working real time
c) people have figured it out and shipped a game with it, but their technique is ineffective

B is the likely answer, and also add "people don't trust new workflows".
Take subdivision surfaces for example, they would perfectly handle your foliage problem, and also your ball problem.

I mean, if it's really that easy and/or solved in books everywhere, you'd think it would have made its way into a shipped title by now! Given that it hasn't leads me to believe that it's not a trivial problem to properly solve. If there is a game out there that does successfully do this though, I'd love to see it in action! Anyone know of any?

BSPs have been invented in the late 70s IIRC..so when did we start to use them?
Anyway, if you wanna see a title that uses some hybrid between progressive mesh and tesselation just have a look at the Jak and Daxter series on PS2.

Marco

 

[tha_con]

Is this topic ever going to get back on it's rails? Or are people going to continue to critisize this game for it's textures and lighting?

The only reason anyone is crapping on this game is because they're LOOKING for faults to say "omg it's not as good as the 2005 trailer". If that trailer never came out, you'd be shitting yourself and in awe.

It's stupid.

 

[nAo]

A cube is probably a bad example. It doesn't need subdivision.

I think he's referring so something like, say, a cylinder. When you view it from the end..

I get it..and yes, it wouldn't work for a face like that, cause the algorithm accurately compute silhouette faces, not silhouette edges, but it's straightforwand to extend that simple formula to handle edges as well. Would it make eays to do in realtime? well not..if you don't encode topology information in a efficient way, cause you will need to fetch multiple normals per edge, thus you can probably fake it computing some kind of average normal per edge.
But when you wanna tesselate sometihng you really don't care about finding those special silhouette edges that way and all the mess that come with it, as you need to pretag them in advance anyway in order to implement any kind of half decent tesselation algorithm (no..multiple patches stiched together are not regarded as decent if you don't want to have your artists cursing at you all day.. )

 

[dai_bo]

A cube is probably a bad example. It doesn't need subdivision.

I think he's referring so something like, say, a cylinder. When you view it from the end, you'll see polygon edges even when the angle between the vertex normal and view vector is far from 90 degrees. Of course, there aren't any ways of looking at a cylinder to avoid round edges, so angle dependent subdivision is pretty useless there anyway.

For anything that can benefit from angle dependent subdivision, your idea is fine IMO. The harder part is subdividing effectively.

Thanks, I gave the example without considering the neccessity of subdivision, but just to demonstrate the correctness of that algorithm. When looking frontally at a facet of a cube, you'll see edges too, without the angle being anywhere near 90°.

 

[ultragpu]

i really like these 720p shots, they just feel so real and intimate. the amount of detail is breath taking. and did anyone notice the realtime wrinkle animaiton on the face?
http://i10.tinypic.com/6frpzlj.jpg
http://i10.tinypic.com/68lyp14.jpg
http://i17.tinypic.com/6bbkwh4.jpg
http://i17.tinypic.com/6b2n1gp.jpg
http://i18.tinypic.com/54dpr43.jpg

 

[Obakan]

i really like these 720p shots, they just feel so real and intimate. the amount of detail is breath taking. and did anyone notice the realtime wrinkle animaiton on the face?
http://i10.tinypic.com/6frpzlj.jpg
http://i10.tinypic.com/68lyp14.jpg
http://i17.tinypic.com/6bbkwh4.jpg
http://i17.tinypic.com/6b2n1gp.jpg
http://i18.tinypic.com/54dpr43.jpg

The last shot (intro) looks good but the others doesnt look as good.
When you say "real" I guess you mean because the game is dark?
When this game comes I think it will be able to compete with CoD4 but I honestly dont think it will be better looking, here´s the reason why:
The fire effects doesnt look good at all nor does the shadows and most of the textures are low resolution.
Almost forgot the biggest reason: Static light ( the word static doesnt sound good )

The main weapon looks very good, I like that one very much.
When it comes to gameplay I do not like so much when you are kind of forced to go a way, I would have liked it more if I was free in that warzone.
I have pretty high standards.

 

[dskneo]

the game doesn't have the typical PC-fps look. Thats a +1 for me.

 

[Obakan]

the game doesn't have the typical PC-fps look. Thats a +1 for me.

If you mean better detail and more advanced effects then I agree to +1 IMO but then PC's are evolving constantly and therefore the edge in technology and raw power. The brown/grey colors make it different to other games, maybe to save on the hardware and render less colors. But I dont think we should compare anything that is off topic since it would be a shame to derail this thread into such nonsense.

 

[pakotlar]

If you mean better detail and more advanced effects then I agree to +1 IMO but then PC's are evolving constantly and therefore the edge in technology and raw power. The brown/grey colors make it different to other games, maybe to save on the hardware and render less colors. But I dont think we should compare anything that is off topic since it would be a shame to derail this thread into such nonsense.

I think it is the style that is different, thats what he means. Not just visual style, but the whole package and the way that it seems it is going to come together.

 

[Nesh]

The last shot (intro) looks good but the others doesnt look as good.
When you say "real" I guess you mean because the game is dark?
When this game comes I think it will be able to compete with CoD4 but I honestly dont think it will be better looking, here´s the reason why:
The fire effects doesnt look good at all nor does the shadows and most of the textures are low resolution.
Almost forgot the biggest reason: Static light ( the word static doesnt sound good )

The main weapon looks very good, I like that one very much.
When it comes to gameplay I do not like so much when you are kind of forced to go a way, I would have liked it more if I was free in that warzone.
I have pretty high standards.

Ironically the in game(edit: I mean gameplay) images provided there look much better to me than the ones from the cut scene

Even with the typical nitpicking on the textures and fire (which isnt that bad compared to other so called "beautiful games") the complete imagery for whatever reason (whether it is tricks , technical achievements or both) manages a more realistic look and natural feel than other FPS.

 

[morlock]

If you mean better detail and more advanced effects then I agree to +1 IMO but then PC's are evolving constantly and therefore the edge in technology and raw power. The brown/grey colors make it different to other games, maybe to save on the hardware and render less colors. But I dont think we should compare anything that is off topic since it would be a shame to derail this thread into such nonsense.

I doubt you could save anything by using less color, unless you render completely monocrome, and this is'nt that. I'm sure we'll have levels in daytime with and other environment just like the original game.

By not looking like a typical PC-fps game i totally agree, it does'nt look "direct-x" like all other seems to do.

 

[zed]

what video do u guys recommend downloading?
i got the first one here
http://au.media.ps3.ign.com/media/748/748475/vids_1.html
which is perhaps the most boring piece of gameplay ive ever seen in my life

- good -
-amazing texture variety (though with a limited pallette, ild prefer more colors ala halo3)
-great lighting

- bad -
- framerate seemed stuttery
- shadow fighting
- the alpha razor fence looked crap

though ild have to see a video with more variety in it to make a better judgement

 

[Nesh]

try the Sony E3 2007 Extended Trailer in the same page.

It has different footage after the cut scene than the original trailer, but it is filled with gameplay footage. So I suggest trying both the original and the extended

 

[ultragpu]

The last shot (intro) looks good but the others doesnt look as good.
When you say "real" I guess you mean because the game is dark?
When this game comes I think it will be able to compete with CoD4 but I honestly dont think it will be better looking, here´s the reason why:
The fire effects doesnt look good at all nor does the shadows and most of the textures are low resolution.
Almost forgot the biggest reason: Static light ( the word static doesnt sound good )

The main weapon looks very good, I like that one very much.
When it comes to gameplay I do not like so much when you are kind of forced to go a way, I would have liked it more if I was free in that warzone.
I have pretty high standards.

the shoddy textures are affected by a motion blur bug so says GG. not all lights are static in the game, from most of wat i seen so far are dynamic and the shadow movements are some of the best. they can certainly smooth out the softshadows abit more though.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

the shoddy textures are affected by a motion blur bug so says GG. .

Do you have your own set of eyes?

Its no motion blur bug, you can see pixelation.

 

[Dr. Meaty]

i really like these 720p shots, they just feel so real and intimate. the amount of detail is breath taking. and did anyone notice the realtime wrinkle animaiton on the face?
http://i10.tinypic.com/6frpzlj.jpg
http://i10.tinypic.com/68lyp14.jpg
http://i17.tinypic.com/6bbkwh4.jpg
http://i17.tinypic.com/6b2n1gp.jpg
http://i18.tinypic.com/54dpr43.jpg

Ouch @ that first one.

 

[Nesh]

You mean the shot on his genitals?

 

[ultragpu]

Do you have your own set of eyes?

Its no motion blur bug, you can see pixelation.

it doesnt hav to b a motion blur effect, could it just b some buggy code from it thats causing the pixelation if any. but nontheless they promised to fix it up in the end thats wat matters.

 

[Jesus2006]

Ouch @ that first one.

Yeah, the compression among those pics is really way to high to judge anything from them or show the visual quality.

 

[xmu]

I personally find KZ2 to look great and feel really promising. The one minor thing I have an issue with are the characters' eyes - they seem to be always looking straight ahead with zero life in them. A really minor thing but once I noticed that, it keeps bugging me.