Fact: Nintendo to release HD console + controllers with built-in screen late 2012

[Nappe1]

I hope it's not just a port machine,I hope that's not how they try and define better 3rd support.
Why would I switch to a new Wii2 just to play games that I have most likely already played on the PS360? For slightly better graphics? Most avid gamers already have a PS360 at this point.
No,I want new 3rd party games. And if they are trying to steal away customers from PS360, I doubt old games are going to cut it.

However there's approximately several millions, if not tenth of millions Wii owners (after all Wii has sold over 86 million units and roughly guess tells that major chunk of that userbase own wii as only console.) who are definitely willing to buy Wii 2 to get games now running in Xbox360 or PC, as long as it runs all those fun party games from Wii too.

My only console is Wii and I don't see me buying XBox or PS3 as second one just for those games. But if I get my wii replaced with one running those AND wii games with pricetag of 200-450 Euros, bring it on!

EDIT: and where the heck I came from back? well, someone did mention eDRAM here...

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Well if they use unified memory, it'll likely be high speed GDDR5, which will probably get expensive very fast. Top end graphics cards right now only have 2GB of GDDR5. And it seems highly unlikely that Nintendo is spending ~$100 just on RAM for a console that probably has $300 as the top-end price point. Even ~$40 may be generous. It might be interesting to look at BOMs for the 360 and PS3 to see component cost estimates for when those consoles launched. I really wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo just used 1GB of GDDR5 in a UMA configuration with the GPU having a bit of dedicated eDRAM or 1T-SRAM, etc.

I for one find it very unlickely that 2GB of GDDR5 will cost that much in 2012.
A GT440 or a HD6670 with 1GB GDDR5 1GB cost 75€ in retail market right now. A 512MB GDDR5 version costs about 20€ less, so we're going at something like 20€ per 512MB GDDR5 (probably ~80% of that price if bought directly from the supplier) in April 2011.
That would do <80€ for 2GB GDDR5 nowadays. With GDDR5 now being pushed towards every segment in graphics cards (even the HD64xx have it), I'm pretty sure these prices will go down a lot in a year.

2GB of UMA GDDR5 128 bit would be great. 256bit would be simply awesome.

 

[Squilliam]

Well if they use unified memory, it'll likely be high speed GDDR5, which will probably get expensive very fast. Top end graphics cards right now only have 2GB of GDDR5. And it seems highly unlikely that Nintendo is spending ~$100 just on RAM for a console that probably has $300 as the top-end price point. Even ~$40 may be generous. It might be interesting to look at BOMs for the 360 and PS3 to see component cost estimates for when those consoles launched. I really wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo just used 1GB of GDDR5 in a UMA configuration with the GPU having a bit of dedicated eDRAM or 1T-SRAM, etc.

According to DRAMexchange the current spot price of 2Gb DDR3 is ~$2. Now if GDDR5 cost 2* the regular price of DDR3, buying 8 of them would only cost $32 if im reading the carts correctly. The only problem here is I don't know how much GDDR5 costs relative to DDR3 although they are both based on the same technology.

 

[ninzel]

Interesting question. But why would you impose the restriction of starting with the same design at all?.

It sounds like Nintendo next system might be something like a beefed up 360 . I was just curious trying to understand what Ninty might do with that design to make it more powerful without breaking the bank. I was using the 360 as a theoretical baseline from where
Ninty might build from.

 

[Rangers]

There's still an outside possibly the Stream could be LESS powerful than 360, I believe that was part of a rumor at one point.

Just, knowing Nintendo's tendency to disappoint on the hardware front, I have a sinking feeling it could actually be true.

But like I think I posted earlier, Xenos is 48X5=something like 240 SP's (of course, knowing one cant directly compare etc) so I'm thinking Wii2 GPU could be 320 sp's or something like that. Coupled with 512 MB RAM, triple core CPU similar to X360 but clocked at 3.6 ghz lets say. That's one stab at the specs.

Sadly, or perhaps amusingly, I see some fanboys on GAf trying to convince themselves that since the rumor said R700, Wii2 must contain a 4870X2 since this is the only GPU technically called R700. Yeah, reminds me of all the wishful thinking/denial when Wii's specs first were credibly rumored.

 

[Kaotik]

There's still an outside possibly the Stream could be LESS powerful than 360, I believe that was part of a rumor at one point.

Just, knowing Nintendo's tendency to disappoint on the hardware front, I have a sinking feeling it could actually be true.

But like I think I posted earlier, Xenos is 48X5=something like 240 SP's (of course, knowing one cant directly compare etc) so I'm thinking Wii2 GPU could be 320 sp's or something like that. Coupled with 512 MB RAM, triple core CPU similar to X360 but clocked at 3.6 ghz lets say. That's one stab at the specs.

Sadly, or perhaps amusingly, I see some fanboys on GAf trying to convince themselves that since the rumor said R700, Wii2 must contain a 4870X2 since this is the only GPU technically called R700. Yeah, reminds me of all the wishful thinking/denial when Wii's specs first were credibly rumored.

Xenos isn't 48x5 really, not in the sense what we have today, as it's Vec4+Scalar instead of VLIW5

 

[function]

Could the rumours be distorted and the Cafe GPU actually be based on Radeon 7 series technology?

 

[Kaotik]

Could the rumours be distorted and the Cafe GPU actually be based on Radeon 7 series technology?

There's no "Radeon 7 series", closest to that would be SI which is most likely going to use Radeon HD 7000 naming.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

It sounds like Nintendo next system might be something like a beefed up 360 . I was just curious trying to understand what Ninty might do with that design to make it more powerful without breaking the bank.

Nintendo has garnished about $10 billion of net income (pure profit). since 2006 -> this already takes into account internal R&D costs.
At this point, they can afford to make a much more powerfull system than PS3\X360 without braking the bank, and sell it at a profit.

However, Nintendo is getting greedy. The kind of greediness that takes companies away from the #1 spot.
You can tell that by looking at the 3DS.
They could have put much more powerfull processing hardware in there, a bigger screen, a much larger battery, sell it at ~$200 and still make a huge profit from the portable console. Instead, their president is saying the console's sales are well below expected because "people aren't understanding the value of 3D" (yeah, as if the sky-high inflated price and the crappiest-ever launch lineup had nothing to do with it).
No wonder the smartphones and MIDs are eating into the 3DS territory, if you ask me.



The Wii had a clear purpose. Nintendo did not have the money to compete with the others on powerfull hardware and had to resort to cheaper IP and lots of imagination to stay competitive, and it simply won, well above their own expectations.
Project Café (Stream, aparently) has another clear purpose: regain support from AAA game developers by at least pairing with PS3\X360 and introducing yet another gimmick that may or may not revolutionize the way we play games.

But Nintendo now has plenty of money to get IP that easily beats the other two consoles by a large margin, while keeping the power envelope to acceptable levels. A custom Llano or Trinity would achieve that.
If Nintendo launches a console in 2012 that doesn't smash the consoles launched in 2006 - at least in GPU performance -, it'll be for greediness, all over again.



Just my humble opinion.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

One of the guys here at work has a 3DS and it's totally underwhelming IMHO.

 

[function]

There's no "Radeon 7 series", closest to that would be SI which is most likely going to use Radeon HD 7000 naming.

That's what I was referring to. Radeon R7xxx series, rather than the 6xxx series cards out now. Given a 2012 release using the next generation technology would be quite feasible, and ATI would already have experience of mass producing it on 28nm.

 

[Megadrive1988]

One of the guys here at work has a 3DS and it's totally underwhelming IMHO.

I have a 3DS with Pilotwings Resort, I found it impressive compared to the DS family. It is a huge leap from sub-N64 graphics to beyond Dreamcast and PSP graphics. Nevermind the 3D effect which is pretty impressive itself.

back on topic, how good is the RV740 compared to the RV770 ?

 

[DieH@rd]

That's what I was referring to. Radeon R7xxx series, rather than the 6xxx series cards out now. Given a 2012 release using the next generation technology would be quite feasible, and ATI would already have experience of mass producing it on 28nm.

Judging by the recent rumors, mass production of 7xxx could start in late may/early june. It will hit retail few months after that.

 

[Megadrive1988]

Vahalla is 180mm² on 45nm process so it may only be possible if Nintendo goes for a 32 nm proces tho (or if they are willing to go with ~300mm² single chip).

Xbox 360 Slim's combined CPU+GPU+EDRAM is called “Vejle”, not Vahalla, from what I've read.

I'm hoping Nintendo's chip/chipset is on 28nm so that they can pack more power on a smaller process and it be cooler, more efficient cheaper. Especially if it's a late 2012 launch.

 

[Megadrive1988]

Are we now speculating that Nintendo might use a Southern Islands / R9xx / Radeon 7xxx design instead of a R7xx / Radeon 4xxx design?

 

[function]

Judging by the recent rumors, mass production of 7xxx could start in late may/early june. It will hit retail few months after that.

That could allow for Cafe dev kits with close to final GPU well before the end of 2011, and wouldn't rule out being able to mass produce for "record breaking" launches globally throughout 2012.

I guess it all depends on how much Nintendo want an up to date GPU feature set and fancy graphics (relative to PS360). Might be nice to have for the early adopters, at least until X3/PS4.

 

[function]

Are we now speculating that Nintendo might use a Southern Islands / R9xx / Radeon 7xxx design instead of a R7xx / Radeon 4xxx design?

Well, that's one possible idea based on speculation about misinterpretation of unconfirmed rumours.

And 28nm should be fairly mature by early/mid 2012 ...

 

[Refreshment]

Closer access to the hardware would allow for the hardware to really shine. I hope too Nintendo managed to fit everything onto a single chip. Vahalla is 180mm² on 45nm process so it may only be possible if Nintendo goes for a 32 nm proces tho (or if they are willing to go with ~300mm² single chip).

That's what i was asking early in the thread. If Nintendo opted for a such an old GPU and a triple core CPU, what are the chances of combining them in a single die. How did you reach the conclusion of more or less 300mm² area?

For my own curiosity: Anyone knows of links about Sharp's fingertip tracking screens?

 

[Deleted member 13524]

back on topic, how good is the RV740 compared to the RV770 ?

Depends on the RV770 iteration. HD4870 is a lot faster because of doubled bandwidth, HD4890 is even faster because of much higher clocks.
But the HD4850, with 256bit GDDR3, is actually very close to the HD4770 with 128-bit GDDR5, mainly because the latter had 20% higher clocks with 25% less shaders and TMUs, and the same number of ROPs.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Hey, look what I just brought from the bottom of the earth:

http://www.s3graphics.com/en/NEWS/news_detail.aspx?id=47

Nintendo Signs S3TC Technology License Agreement with S3 Graphics

From April 2010.

AFAIK, the PICA200 doesn't support DXT.. pardon.. S3TC, and neither did Flipper. Pretty much every PC GPU supports S3TC ever since the DX7 era, so it won't tell us what GPU it is, but may be an indication that it is, in fact, an off-the-shelf GPU.