Fact: Nintendo to release HD console + controllers with built-in screen late 2012

[ltcommander.data]

Hey, look what I just brought from the bottom of the earth:

http://www.s3graphics.com/en/NEWS/news_detail.aspx?id=47

From April 2010.

AFAIK, the PICA200 doesn't support DXT.. pardon.. S3TC, and neither did Flipper. Pretty much every PC GPU supports S3TC ever since the DX7 era, so it won't tell us what GPU it is, but may be an indication that it is, in fact, an off-the-shelf GPU.

Are you sure Flipper didn't support S3TC?

http://www.segatech.com/gamecube/overview/index.html

Image Processing Function: Fog, Subpixel Anti-aliasing, 8 Hardware Lights, Alpha Blending, Virtual Texture Design, Multi-texturing, Bump Mapping, Environment Mapping, MIP Mapping, Bilinear Filtering, Trilinear Filtering, Ansitropic Filtering, and Real-time Hardware Texture Decompression (S3TC).

I guess it depends on how reliable this website is, but the information it has on Gamecube is very complete including some information from Nintendo's official GameCube Hardware Overview documentation.

In any case, did Nintendo need a S3TC license before if ATI has designing the hardware and IBM was manufacturing it? Nintendo would basically be a systems integrator, perhaps like ASUS or MSI who I don't believe need a license. Perhaps this new license from S3, means that Nintendo will be directly involved with the design of the GPU this time around, maybe to implement this controller streaming tech.

On another note, is Nintendo generally adverse to process shrinks? It didn't seems like Gamecube's CPU or GPU underwent a shrink during it's lifetime and neither did Wii sticking to 180nm and 90nm process respectively. If Nintendo prefers not to implement process shrinks during a consoles lifecycle that limits what CPU and GPU options they can choose. ie. it must be cheap, power efficient, and high yield from the get go. And assuming they are conservative in process tech and want to retain the option to push a H1 2012 launch in Japan before a worldwide H2 2012 release, then they are likely going to choose the IBM 45nm and/or TSMC 40nm process. That would make even the RV740 is a shaky option as the top-end GPU choice since while it is every efficient on a perf/watt perspective, the 80W TDP is still uncharacteristically high for a Nintendo console. The Wii is reported to consume 18W when switched on and I believe Gamecube's power supply was rated at 42W.

 

[Megadrive1988]

Hey, look what I just brought from the bottom of the earth:

http://www.s3graphics.com/en/NEWS/news_detail.aspx?id=47

From April 2010.

AFAIK, the PICA200 doesn't support DXT.. pardon.. S3TC, and neither did Flipper. Pretty much every PC GPU supports S3TC ever since the DX7 era, so it won't tell us what GPU it is, but may be an indication that it is, in fact, an off-the-shelf GPU.

Ummm Flipper supported S3TC in hardware, it's actually a small chuck of Flipper's die. Their agreement dates back to 1999

Nintendo, S3 team on 'Dolphin' game console
Posted on Oct 2nd 1999 by _

Nintendo will employ S3's graphics technology in its next home video game console, code-named "Dolphin."

As the first game console to embed S3's advanced texture compression - or S3TC - technology right onto the graphics chip, Dolphin hopes to mark a major improvement in gaming graphics, Nintendo officials said.

The next-generation console also will integrate technology from development partners IBM, Matsushita, ArtX and MoSys.

S3TC will allow Dolphin developers to compress texture data to one-sixth its normal size while maintaining or improving the image quality of the original artwork. Larger and more detailed textures will thus require less memory and reduced load time.

http://www.tgdaily.com/hardware-brief/18826-nintendo-s3-team-on-dolphin-game-console


http://www.segatech.com/gamecube/overview/index.html

•Image Processing Function: Fog, subpixel anti-aliasing, HW light x8, alpha blending, virtual texture design, multi-texture mapping/bump/environment mapping, MIPMAP, bilinear filtering, trilinear filtering, anisitropic filtering, real-time texture decompression (S3TC), and more

edit: beaten

That's little tiny square within the TF unit is the S3TC in hardware.

 

[Megadrive1988]

What is more interesting to me, is that this nintendo console, whatever AMD GPU it uses, will be the first to have Lockheed Martin Real3D IP in there, thanks to ATI swooping up Real3D's orlando office years ago, an also aquiring much of Real3D IP and engineering staff. Of course you won't read about that anywhere since it's not very interesting to most people and beyond the scope of any tech report, rumor mill etc.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Are you sure Flipper didn't support S3TC?

http://www.segatech.com/gamecube/overview/index.html

I guess it depends on how reliable this website is, but the information it has on Gamecube is very complete including some information from Nintendo's official GameCube Hardware Overview documentation.

I honestly don't know. The wikipedia page makes no mention of S3TC, but nonetheless, a 2010 licensing means it's not meant for Gamecube or Wii.

In any case, did Nintendo need a S3TC license before if ATI has designing the hardware and IBM was manufacturing it? Nintendo would basically be a systems integrator, perhaps like ASUS or MSI who I don't believe need a license. Perhaps this new license from S3, means that Nintendo will be directly involved with the design of the GPU this time around, maybe to implement this controller streaming tech.

Yes, the S3TC licensing may be an indication that Nintendo seems to have been actively developing the GPU along with a partner (probably the former ArtX team that now reside in ATI\AMD, afaik?).
Which in turn would mean it's not an off-the-shelf R7xx part like RV740 or RV770.

On another note, is Nintendo generally adverse to process shrinks?

I remember reading that the Gekko and Flipper were reduced to 130nm at some point.
I think Broadway and Hollywood were both dirt cheap to make from the start so Nintendo may have never bothered to shrink them from the original 90nm.

 

[Megadrive1988]

It's a known fact that Nintendo teamed with ArtX, S3 and NEC to design Flipper. The developed happened many in 1999, that's when specs where locked down. Year 2000 was getting everything ready for mass production and of course 2001 is when GameCube was released

 

[ltcommander.data]

I honestly don't know. The wikipedia page makes no mention of S3TC, but nonetheless, a 2010 licensing means it's not meant for Gamecube or Wii.

http://cube.ign.com/articles/086/086984p1.html

The console also features a 202.5MHZ ArtX developed graphics chip codenamed "Flipper" with 3MBs of embedded 1T-SRAM and onboard geometry and lighting engine. It also boasts hardwired S3 texture compression for on-the-fly decompression with no hit on hardware.
...
Whereas PlayStation 2's CPU and two Vector Units split up the tasks of various graphic procedures, like transformation and lighting, for example, all of this is handled singularly by Gamecube's Flipper chip, which also decompresses textures at a 6:1 ratio. PS2 has no hardware texture compression and seeing as how it only features 4MBs of Embedded DRAM on its graphic synthesizer, developers would need to compress textures in software, which in turn means a significant hit on the Emotion Engine CPU.

Michael Lamb, CEO of Left Field Productions, offers: "One of the bottle necks the PS2 developers I talk to seems to be the limited size of video memory. This will be less of a problem on the Nintendo Gamecube because of the speed of the memory and S3 compression resulting in smaller textures."

Just for completeness, confirmation of Gamecube and therefore Wii support for S3TC from developers. It's actually a very interesting article comparing the Gamecube to the PS2. It's also very clear the parallels in the concern/complaints/hopes about the difficulty/potential of the vector units in the PS2 and the SPEs in the PS3.

On the CPU front, I wonder what are the chances Nintendo would stick with a Hollywood derived design? Shrink it to 45nm, double the clock speed, implement three of them on the same die, and maybe tweak the FPU/vector unit a bit. That should put it somewhere in between just the PPE in the PS3 and Xenon in the 360 CPU-wise, with the focus being on the more powerful GPU. The SPEs are often being used to assist the RSX, so a faster GPU will also negate some of Cell's CPU advantage. It would explain the faster/slower than XBox 360 swings depending on whether you are CPU-bound with the weaker CPU making it slower or GPU-bound where you'll be faster overall.

 

[swaaye]

I think it is extremely unlikely that Nintendo would use a PC GPU. I don't understand why people jump to this train of thought every time.

Hollywood and Xenos both have extra features beyond what a PC GPU has. Hollywood has an ARM CPU inside and an audio DSP, for example. They are more like a northbridge with an IGP. A PC GPU also has transistors spent on things useless to a console like extra display outputs. And, PC GPUs aren't tailored to a single resolution so they aren't as efficient as could be with eDRAM targeting a specific resolution.

I think it would be wise to expect something based on Cypress or RV7x0 technology with heavy customization for its console use. It won't be like any specific video card. And it will likely support more than DX11.

Of course this is all assuming that they don't just hop up Hollywood tech with 720p capability. More eDRAM and clock speed maybe. It really wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Yeah but it'll still be based on PC tech because it's available and quite capable. Xenos was quite different from ATI GPUs of that time, and it's still quite unique thanks to the combination of EDRAM and unified shaders.
Sure, Gamecube's GPU was quite the custom design too - but this time Nintendo is more likely to only pay for a more standard GPU combined with northbridge functionality on a single die, IMHO.

 

[liolio]

That's what i was asking early in the thread. If Nintendo opted for a such an old GPU and a triple core CPU, what are the chances of combining them in a single die. How did you reach the conclusion of more or less 300mm² area?

For my own curiosity: Anyone knows of links about Sharp's fingertip tracking screens?

R700 are old but far from bad if you consider perfs per transistors. I believe (hope) that they manage to pull this using a single chip. I pull that number mostly out of my ass, it's a really gross guestimate, it would not take that much space to make something better than Xenon much of the increase in die size would be devoted to the GPU.
It would be interesting to know how Xenos is affected by the change in process (from bulk to SOI) in regard to power consumption, reachable clockspeed, etc. It will be interesting to see how fast or slow are clock the GPU is clocked in Llano for example.

 

[Rangers]

Hey, look what I just brought from the bottom of the earth:

http://www.s3graphics.com/en/NEWS/news_detail.aspx?id=47

From April 2010.

AFAIK, the PICA200 doesn't support DXT.. pardon.. S3TC, and neither did Flipper. Pretty much every PC GPU supports S3TC ever since the DX7 era, so it won't tell us what GPU it is, but may be an indication that it is, in fact, an off-the-shelf GPU.

Not surprising. IMO off the shelf is the only way to go going forward. Xenos worked out well but it's the last we need to see of that.

Off the shelf will greatly reduce R&D costs and time, and there's no real need for custom performance improvements, besides of course minor modular things such as chopping the number of rops.

 

[swaaye]

Xenos' 3D hardware may not be as custom as it seems though. We know that ATI had a very different R400 project in the works which was supposedly unified shader-based. I imagine that Xenos was based on that, a parallel project beside the mainstream PC efforts, leading up to R600.

 

[Megadrive1988]

Not surprising. IMO off the shelf is the only way to go going forward. Xenos worked out well but it's the last we need to see of that.

Off the shelf will greatly reduce R&D costs and time, and there's no real need for custom performance improvements, besides of course minor modular things such as chopping the number of rops.

Noooooooooo. No more chopping the ROPS. That's in part what killed 360/PS3's ability to render at HD resolutions in all games. 8 ROPS was a bad decision. It's bad enough they had 128-bit busses, but cutting the ROPS from 16 to 8 killed them. 4000 MPixels/sec fillrate wasn't enough. I hope Cafe has at least 8 MPixel/sec fillrate if not 12 MPixel/sec.

 

[swaaye]

I've thought that the 8 ROPs were matched to the 128-bit buses of this generation. Limited bandwidth. But the eDRAM of 360 has me wondering.

 

[ltcommander.data]

Noooooooooo. No more chopping the ROPS. That's in part what killed 360/PS3's ability to render at HD resolutions in all games. 8 ROPS was a bad decision. It's bad enough they had 128-bit busses, but cutting the ROPS from 16 to 8 killed them. 4000 MPixels/sec fillrate wasn't enough. I hope Cafe has at least 8 MPixel/sec fillrate if not 12 MPixel/sec.

With GDDR5, I'm thinking 128-bit memory buses could be used again this generation. It's certainly cheaper in the long run to use the fastest available GDDR5 now with a 128-bit bus even if the memory is expensive because memory only gets cheaper with time whereas the cost of implementing a 256-bit bus in die size, pin out, and traces won't be dropping as quickly over a console's lifespan.

 

[Megadrive1988]

Cafe better have at least 16 ROPS, is all I can think of at the moment.

 

[Megadrive1988]

found another article about Nintendo using S3TC in Dolphin from back in 1999

In one of its first moves outside the PC market, S3 Inc has licensed its 3D graphics texture technology to Nintendo Co Ltd, to be used in its new Dolphin games console. S3 already uses the technology - dubbed S3TC - in its own chips - the compression algorithm will be incorporated in the Dolphin's graphics accelerator, which was designed by ArtX Inc.

Paul Crossley, a spokesperson for Santa Clara, California-based S3, described the deal as important because it moves S3 outside of it traditional market, PC OEM deals and the consumer PC add-on market. The major PC graphics chips vendors have been unnerved by Sega's Dreamcast, Nintendo's Dolphin and especially Sony's Playstation II. This is partly because of the graphics capabilities offered on the consoles, but also because all three offer internet access as well as gaming. There is the possibility that these and other consumer-orientated appliances could start to eat into consumer PC market share.

S3 says that the texture compression will allow games developers to increase the detail on 3D backgrounds and characters, resulting in more film-like images, without a drop in game speed. The S3 algorithm compresses texture data by a factor of six. Texturing is the color and shading that is added to 3D wire-frame models so that they look more real.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CGN/is_3759/ai_55943326/

 

[ltcommander.data]

Cafe better have at least 16 ROPS, is all I can think of at the moment.

Personally, I'm thinking Nintendo will go with some type of cross between R700 and Xenos allowing better performance while offering easy portability. Specifically I'm thinking 480SPs with 24 TMUs, since I'm thinking something analogous to the 640SP in the HD4770 with its 80W TDP is too power and heat hungry for Nintendo's tastes. This will be coupled with a eDRAM daughter die that is double that in Xenos. That will give the 16 ROPs. More notably, 20MB of eDRAM means a 1080p image with 4x FSAA will be rendered in 4 tiles, which is very convenient for the proposed 4 way split-screen controller streaming since each tile can be sent to each controller as it's rendered.

For the rest of the system, we'll say 2GB of unified ~5GHz GDDR5 on a 128-bit memory bus and a Xenon derived CPU.

 

[Megadrive1988]

good about 16 ROPS, I hope it pans out.


another list of rumors

Of course these are only rumors…..but if only half were true…so awesome.

- Nintendo are planning a full reveal of the console, controller and 1st/2nd party games at E3.

- The console is confirmed to be backwards compatible with all Wii/Gamecube titles, and all your VC games will be transferred over once you link your credit card to the system.

- Many 3rd party developers have development kits who are supposedly hard at work to have something to show (and play) at E3.

-3rd Parties were involved with the development of the console, with requests for what specifications they’d like to see. As of now (which could change) the system runs of a custom built IBM triple-core CPU and has 2gb RAM. The graphics chip is a custom built Radeon R700 chip.

- There is an internal SSD. Size is unknown at this point.

- It will run natively at 1080p.

- The new controller slightly resembles a Gamecube controller with a large LCD screen in the middle of it. The controller is light for its size and looks like a tablet with Gamecube-like prongs to the side. It has dual analogue sticks, face buttons, d-pad and shoulder buttons. No triggers were on the device.

- The screen on the controller is indeed a 6″ LCD high resolution (reported 640 x 960 pixels) display. However, Nintendo said in order to keep battery life manageable, the controller doesn’t have any hardware to produce graphics itself. The image is simply a video stream directly from the console.

- The controller uses rechargeable lithium ion batteries. Size of the battery is unknown.

- The Wiimote can be used and a new model of Wiimote will be released with the console. This new controller will have overhauled internals allowing for much more precise movement tracking than even the Wiimote Plus had.

- The Project Cafe system development kit is not representative of the final console design. The console is smaller and resembles the Japanese/European SNES models.

- Nintendo have told developers that their online system will be ‘the best online experience’ that’s available on consoles. The whole idea of the machine is to be connected to the internet 24/7. It’s being targeted as an online/social console. Friend codes are gone, but no word on whether the online service will be subscription based.

- The Pokemon RPG is the title Nintendo will be showing off their online experience with.

- As reported by other sources, Nintendo is targeting this console to the hardcore gamers once again.

- Nintendo is planning on some sophisticated inter-game communication between the 3DS and the console. Nintendo didn’t explain what they’re planning on.

To be shown at E3:

Nintendo:
- Pikmin 3 (playable, launch title)
- Pokemon RPG (video, launch or near launch title)
- Super Mario Bros title (playable)
- Star Fox (playable)
- Smash Bros 4 (playable)
- Mario Kart (video)
- Zelda (tech demo)
- Metroid (tech demo)
- New IP (video)

Rockstar Games:
- Red Dead Redemption 2 (video)
- Grand Theft Auto “New Title” (video)

Ubisoft:
- Rayman Legends (playable)
- Red Steel 3 (playable)
- New IP (video)

SquareEnix:
- Final Fantasy XV

Capcom:
- Resident Evil (video)
- Megaman (video)
- Monster Hunter (video)

EA:
- NBA ’13 (video)
- NFL ’13 (video)
- NHL ’13 (video)

Activision:
- Modern Warfare 3 (video)

Konami:
- Metal Gear title (video)
- Winning Eleven (video)

Namco:
- Tekken Tag Tournament 2 (playable)
- Soul Calibur 5 (video)
- Pacman Rebirth (video)

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=127887


It would be amazing to see a Metroid game, even if only in tech-demo form. Remember the SpaceWorld 2000 Metroid CG/FMV demo with per-pixel lighting, motion blur and AA?

I'll bet the Cafe is more than capable of running that realtime in 1080p 60fp. I hope Retro is working on it

 

[sfried]

Of course this is all assuming that they don't just hop up Hollywood tech with 720p capability. More eDRAM and clock speed maybe. It really wouldn't surprise me.

I think this would be a pretty good guess, except maybe display it at 1080p since it's now standardized in all sets.

If that's the case, then why would developers be so happy if it didn't have "any gimmicks"?

*Rumors*

Dunno about having "the best online experience", but if their jump with 3DS and with the later update coming, hopefully it will be robust enough. The rest of this list...eh. Too incredible to be true.

That said, I would be pleasantly surprised if Ubi's "new IP" happens to be Beyond Good & Evil 2. And the only way for this new system to make a splash is to have Epic's "approval" to woo in the "hardcore" crowd.

 

[Megadrive1988]

I really do NOT think Nintendo will use a parallized version of Flipper/Hollywood architecture for Cafe/Stream/Wii2/WiiHD whatever. It'll be a new (compared to Flipper/Hollywood) architecture, in the Rx7xx or higher families.