Analyst predict Xbox 360 will beat PlayStation 3 - Inq

scooby_dooby said:
Yes, but you also have to consider the period from 2006-2008. That's the period where MS has a dominant market lead, expecially for the first 2 years, that will probably result in the X360 having more games and drawing more 3rd party developers who are looking to cash in on the NA market leader.

So, this will probably be the FIRST time Sony has had the system with LESS support, the first time the competition actually offered more games. Combine that with a potentially lower price-point, and brand loyalty may not be nearly as important as people think.

Nintendo had the most hardcore brand loyalty you can get, but gamers went with the system with the most games. That's always been the PS, but next-gen situations may be reversed.
I think MS will put up a big fight in the US, and with an early lead in the US I think US devs will not shy away from them.

But the great equalizer--beyond all the other points like games people wants (MGS type games)--is this: Japan and Europe. Sony is going to do VERY well there. That means Japanese Devs and European Devs are going to support the PS3, most likely more so than the Xbox 360. And most of those games will be appealing to many PS gamers.

So I don't necessarily see MS walking away with the "game support crown" just because they launch early. I think they are a viable platform and will compete well in the US (I could see a US split) which will means US companies support both. But hard to imagine Japanese Devs all jumping on board.

Btw, if MS wanted to win in the US, or in the least really put Sony behind and shift the attention of millions of gamers to MS: Get a Madden exclusive for Fall 2007.

That would make the 360 the "sporting" platform of choice. I think EA is estimating 6M copies of Madden yearly for the life of the NFL deal. Snagging an NFL exclusive would raise a lot of eyebrows.

I am not sure that is possible OR affordable, but anytime after 2007 would cost waaay to much. (This is why I dislike some of these exclusives, they could be used as serious weapons).
 
Acert93 said:
Lets expand 'mindshare' to 90M happy PS2 customers who are in love with the PS franchises (MGS, GTA, GT, Tekken, etc).

90 Mill is a bit of inflated number since a lot of the sales have being either slimmer pstwo's and replacement for faulty ps2's, which are a bunch. Just to be fear I dont have exact numbers either.

Further, Sony has a really nice ace in the hole called: Dev support. They have more than they know what to do with.

Xbox gained some nice momentum this past year, MS has proven to be a real player in the market, has gotten some nice dev support (especially compared to last gen beginning), and Live is online now (just when broadband penetration is more common than narrowband), etc.

Dev support can change in one generation, just look at the snes-ps1 transition. I am thinking about the impact of head starts, as the ps1 had a head start, just like the ps2. This is the first time sony is not starting ahead of the pack in sales. lets see how this works out for them.



But for every step forward, they take a half step back (half baked E3 showing for example). They have a large launch lineup, but not many killers it seems (at most 4 if PGR3, Oblivion, PDZ, and Kameo live up to their hype + Madden as a mainstream game).

I prefered MS's e3 to sony's super hype machine at wortk.(Dont get me wrong, I dont like M$, but prerendered stuff on sony's part was cheak as fuck.) If the fanboi's enjoy watching videos thats fine, not me. Realtime for me, or nothing, thanks.

The PS3 is going to be an excellent product (with some great extras like BR for those interested) + a ton of dev support, namely the killer franchises those 90M people love. And devs have been working with CELL/NV40 SLI for a while, so the end result should be some KILLER launch titles.

I agree with it being good an all, but a 90+million units sold this generation is quite difficult. I'm on the wait and see side, again, sony does not have the head start for the first time in their console bussiness.

The US may be close, but world wide I am not sure anything can slow, let alone stop, the Sony tidal wave. MS may make a good showing (I think the 55/90 split of former forcasts sums up my guess) but I don't see Sony making any real mistakes. They wet the mouths and have given devs what they want for the most part (especially in RSX and Cg).

Well, what tidal wave are we talking about? You make it seem that it is nearly impossible to beat sony in this bussiness. I would have said the same about nintendo in the nes/snes era.
 
Inane_Dork said:
That's totally true, but you have to agree that any company beating the PS3 for anything close to a year's span is a big shift.
~20M consoles sold in the first 3 years would be a HUGE milestone for MS. By then they will be dropping to $150ish for year 4 and maybe $100 by year 5 (the years sales really pick up). If they hit 20M by year 3 I will be shocked.
 
compres said:
Well, what tidal wave are we talking about? You make it seem that it is nearly impossible to beat sony in this bussiness. I would have said the same about nintendo in the nes/snes era.

The North American market really is the most contestable and should be seen as the only realistic battleground. Everywhere else Sony has something like 70-90% marketshare. Europe is almost like Japan for Sony. These markets would take several generations to break and Japan is probably not possible.
 
avaya said:
The North American market really is the most contestable and should be seen as the only realistic battleground. Everywhere else Sony has something like 70-90% marketshare. Europe is almost like Japan for Sony. These markets would take several generations to break and Japan is probably not possible.

Totally agree, but what was nintendo's market share back in the snes era? Also, what would have been of the n64 had it been released a year before ps1?

Maybe we will never know, but am sure it would have not been the same.
 
compres said:
90 Mill is a bit of inflated number since a lot of the sales have being either slimmer pstwo's and replacement for faulty ps2's, which are a bunch. Just to be fear I dont have exact numbers either.
They have sold over 90M -- well over now actually. I have a hard time believing 10M people went out and bought a 2nd PS2 just to get a smaller one.

Yes some PS2s broke, others are not being used, and others have been replaced with new shinier models. But if you do that to the PS2 you MUST do that to the 22M Xbox consoles.

It is just a lot easier to focus on units sold.

Dev support can change in one generation, just look at the snes-ps1 transition. I am thinking about the impact of head starts, as the ps1 had a head start, just like the ps2. This is the first time sony is not starting ahead of the pack in sales. lets see how this works out for them.
Sony already has over 100 games in development in Japan. I will assume that the 25 EA games slated for the Xbox 360 are all coming to the PS3. Activision will surely support the PS3.

• MS has more dev support in 2005 than they did in 2000
• MS will have more games available in 2006 when the PS3 launches

MS is also a known quantity now (i.e. Xbox is not just a PC trojan). That said, I don't see Sony's support vaporizing. It is there, it is coming. Don't count out Sony: they will only be behind in sales due to release date. They have better support from JP/EU and have the minds of many gamers.

Sony has a slew of system sellers: GTA, MGS, GT, etc. Having more games is not enough--you need the GOOD games.

I prefered MS's e3 to sony's super hype machine at wortk.(Dont get me wrong, I dont like M$, but prerendered stuff on sony's part was cheak as fuck.) If the fanboi's enjoy watching videos thats fine, not me. Realtime for me, or nothing, thanks.
An important factor in evaluating something in terms of a market is to take your OWN opinion out of it. As a hardcore gamer I was not impressed with Sony's show (less I DID want to see a 150minute KZ movie! drooool).

But MS's was very weak. The good PDZ footage was locked up. PGR3 was a no show. GOW did not get the focus it needed. Ruby demo was not shown. A ton of games were a mess--either looking like Xbox ports OR with horrible framerates.

Sony presented a vision that people drooled over. MS made people confused. I liked MS's show--I liked a couple games they showed a LOT. But you cannot deny fan impressions: people got geeked out by the Sony vision.

The power of marketing is important. I think MS has too many monkey's working in the advertising board room.

I agree with it being good an all, but a 90+million units sold this generation is quite difficult. I'm on the wait and see side, again, sony does not have the head start for the first time in their console bussiness.
They had the DC last gen, which they squashed, and were head to head with the SS in Japan/US with PS1 (actually, SS launched earlier in the US, my friends brother picked one up not too long after E3).

Yes, MS has a lead, and probably a decent one in the US/EU. But that lead means nothing if NOT capitolized on. What games are gonna sell systems in that lead period? Of MS does not supply a killer title, all Sony needs to do is say KZ and MGS will be available on launch day 2006.

Well, what tidal wave are we talking about? You make it seem that it is nearly impossible to beat sony in this bussiness. I would have said the same about nintendo in the nes/snes era.
Nintendo did some stupid things from the perspective in winning the most console sales.

But alas--consoles sales are not everything. Nintendo has stood up well to Sony in console profits with 1/4 the market.

And yes, I don't think I have seen any mistakes from Sony or moves by MS that make me think MS can topple the Sony lead. Dent it? Maybe. Hurt Sony's profits? Yes, I see that. MS grow install base? Yes.

But pass Sony in total console sales? Heh. :LOL:

They just don't have the system sellers yet. MS has Halo. Sony has a slew of killer name brand titles.

MS's portfolio is growing and looking better every day, but it is an uphill battle. I would feel more confident in MS if they had a killer advertising platform and message/image. They have had some killer material (Ruby, GOW, PGR3) that I feel they have under exposed and not pushed correctly.

I think MS needs new people to run their console image. Allard being "cool" is nothing. Balmar screaming, "Developers! Developers! Developer!" is waaaay to geeky. They are out of touch I think with what gamers want in an *advertising* sense. I think they make good games, but they are not marketing them.

And in this industry the most important thing is getting games to people. Sony has a way of making devs happy and then getting games from devs to gamers.

MS wont fail this gen, but toppling Sony seems like Mt. Everest.
 
compres said:
Totally agree, but what was nintendo's market share back in the snes era? Also, what would have been of the n64 had it been released a year before ps1?

Maybe we will never know, but am sure it would have not been the same.

More dominant for the NES actually. I'm pretty sure NES was the most dominant of all time but don't have the figures at hand.

N64 was actually ahead in sales in Japan for quite a while but somehow Sony managed to turn it around. You'd have to google it to find out everything.

I think for MS to contemplate matching Sony in Europe and elsewhere Sony will have to make some mistakes. Nintendo made crucial errors and could not hold a candle to Sony on the marketing side of things. MS and Sony are even on that front, but you never know.
 
There's an oft seen bar graph of PS sales, showing PS1, PS2 and PSP/PS3 predictions I think. However I've been unable to find it. Can someone post a link?
 
RE: the 90 million number, that's worldwide, not US.

According to current market research, PS3 has about 40% in the US, while XBOX is at about 34%, dont have time to find the link right now, but it's much closer in the US than the global sales figures might suggest.
 
That's what others have been pointing out scooby, the US is really the most contested game market with the others leaning rather heavily towards Sony. I agree with Acert's points though, with Sony's brand name and the fact that they do have so many high-profile exclusives I think it will be basically impossible for MS to sell more units worldwide than Sony this upcoming gen. I will be very shocked, however, if MS doesn't sell at least 40-50 million units this time around.

By the way, does anyone have a link to a website that shows the total amount of hardware sold for the consoles including the PSP and DS? I'd prefer the numbers be somewhat recent. :)
 
scooby_dooby said:
RE: the 90 million number, that's worldwide, not US.

According to current market research, PS3 has about 40% in the US, while XBOX is at about 34%, dont have time to find the link right now, but it's much closer in the US than the global sales figures might suggest.

http://www.jsonline.com/bym/tech/news/may05/325771.asp

May numbers will have to do right now because I am feeling lazy...

Anyway, the Xbox has 22.5% of the market share with the PS2 at 60.4%. That will have only grown wider over the months.

So if this 'market research' is talking about active console userbase or something, I would very much like so read it if you could dig it up. Just as an aside though, I did a little analysis on some NPD numbers in June and the 'active' market share I could determine from total software sales looked like this: PS2 51.3%, Xbox 33.7%, GCN 15%.

The data would have more meaning I guess if it had been recorded every month as June was a strong month for Xbox and those numbers may not be indicative of an average split.
 
scooby_dooby said:
RE: the 90 million number, that's worldwide, not US.

According to current market research, PS3 has about 40% in the US, while XBOX is at about 34%, dont have time to find the link right now, but it's much closer in the US than the global sales figures might suggest.

PS2 was at about ~58.5% in the US as of the end of 2004. Xbox was at ~23.5%, GameCube at ~18%.

I don't have to-date figures, but I could look them up based on NPD I guess.
 
I wasn't talking about current consoles installed base, but rather the yearly market share, which I think is more useful in determining "mindshare" of the current consumer.

June NPD numbers reinforce that Xbox success is continuing, while competitive consoles' lifecycles continue to taper off.

  • Xbox was the only system to see year-over-year unit growth for June in both console hardware and software sales. Xbox console unit sales grew 55 percent while Xbox software units were up 69 percent.
  • Market share for Xbox has increased 10 points from June 2003 (23 percent) to June 2004 (33 percent) in the United States: this is the eighth consecutive month that Xbox has grown its market share year-over-year.
  • Xbox continues to lead the industry with a 6.9 software attach rate for June (7.8 with retail bundled games), the highest cumulative attach rate of any console at this point in the lifecycle. Halfway through 2004, Xbox continues to be the only system growing year-over-year, as console sales were up an amazing 45 percent, while PlayStation 2 sales are down 21 percent for the same time period.
http://www.gaming-age.com/news/2004/7/23-46 (i can't find the link I was thinkin of, but this one seems to reference the same numbers. It was 33% XBOX 39% PS2)

We're talking about brand loyalty and mindshare in the US. These numbers paint a much different picture than total installed base (60% sony) which includes sales from 1999 and are completely irrelevent to todays consumer.

If you look at the current market in the US, XBOX is on the rise, PS is on the fall, that speaks to mindshare much more than past saels figures form 6 years ago I'd think.
 
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scooby_dooby said:
I wasn't talking about current consoles installed base, but rather the yearly market share, which I think is more useful in determining "mindshare" of the current consumer.


http://www.gaming-age.com/news/2004/7/23-46 (i can't find the link I was thinkin of, but this one seems to reference the same numbers)

We're talking about brand loyalty and mindshare in the US. These numbers paint a much different picture than total installed base (60% sony) which includes sales from 1999 and are completely irrelevent to todays consumer.

If you look at the current market in the US, XBOX is on the rise, PS is on the fall, that speaks to mindshare much more than past saels figures form 6 years ago I'd think.

Except, looking at June 05 NPD figures, the market split was like this:

PS2: 59.9%
Xbox: 28.3%
GC: 11.8%

Which isn't out of line with the lifetime figures.

edit - earlier disparity was due to comparing ms's june 04 figures with NPD june 05 figures - whoops! but these 05 figures are more recent.

The lifetime figures, by the way, up to and including August 05 are:

PS2: 58.6%
Xbox: 23.8%
GC: 17.6%

2005 figures up to and including August are:

PS2: 60.14%
Xbox: 27.74%
GC: 12.12%

For 2005 to August, Xbox is up compared to lifetime figures, but so is Sony, to a smaller degree. Xbox's gains have not been at Sony's expense, rather Nintendo's.
 
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the numbers I mentioned are for the entire year, June 2003 - June 2004, not for a single month.

Do you have a link to June 04-June 05 numbers?
 
Titanio said:
... Xbox's gains have not been at Sony's expense, rather Nintendo's...

I would think that most of the Xbox's market share is not at Sony's expense. I bet that a large portion of Xbox owners also own or have purchased the PS2 as well.
 
It's amazing how many people believe that the Playstation3 is a sure bet to lead next generation. There's no such thing as a sure bet.
 
Alpha_Spartan said:
It's amazing how many people believe that the Playstation3 is a sure bet to lead next generation. There's no such thing as a sure bet.
Not as amazing as those who believe the X360 would lead next gen.

So far, most of the opinions here have been based on current gen figures, market & mindshare based on those figures, and looking at current gen exclusive AAA titles and how they've benefitted it's host hardware. These, at least, are factual statistics, and because of that, these opinions, IMHO, are more credible to me than some analyst judging the future based on launch dates. These are not sure bets, but rather, educated guesstimates based on the current gen., with the above factors thrown into the mix. Personally, ever since the PSP pricing debacle, I'll never listen to an analyst again!;)
 
Acert93 said:
I think MS will put up a big fight in the US, and with an early lead in the US I think US devs will not shy away from them.

But the great equalizer--beyond all the other points like games people wants (MGS type games)--is this: Japan and Europe. Sony is going to do VERY well there. That means Japanese Devs and European Devs are going to support the PS3, most likely more so than the Xbox 360. And most of those games will be appealing to many PS gamers.

Care to expand a bit more on this? To be more specific: why do you think MS will do great in US and not in the EU (except for dev support)? Why the difference? Why dont US-gamers want PS games (MGS, GTA, DMC etc) to the same extent as EU-gamers does? Cant MS put up a big fight in EU as they will do in US? Because it seems to me, winning over EU shouldnt be too hard, it is not like PS3 is developed here.
 
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