The Big Forza 2 Thread *

They are Viva Pinata models as far as I can tell.
Gotcha! Duck in front; long red spiky-tooth thing behind.

I know there's likea trillion layers of art that can be applied, but wouldn't something like this just be a bitmap pasted on? How much effort is it to add a fullscale paintjob (rather than lots of separate decos)?
 
Gotcha! Duck in front; long red spiky-tooth thing behind.

I know there's likea trillion layers of art that can be applied, but wouldn't something like this just be a bitmap pasted on? How much effort is it to add a fullscale paintjob (rather than lots of separate decos)?

If I'm properly understanding what you're asking, there is no provision for pasting on a bitmap. Every custom paint job you see on a car in Forza 2 is composed of multiple layers of different basic shapes that have been colored, resized, skewed, rotated, etc. to create the images on the cars.
 
If I'm properly understanding what you're asking, there is no provision for pasting on a bitmap. Every custom paint job you see on a car in Forza 2 is composed of multiple layers of different basic shapes that have been colored, resized, skewed, rotated, etc. to create the images on the cars.
Okay, like the glyphs in say PES's flag creation.

In which case, colour me very impressed with the different paint jobs out there! And also perplexed why they don't allow imports of images. That'd save people a lot of bother!

Actaully I don't suppose there's a straightforward way to do that. You can't plug in a flash mem card. Though aren't USB drives supported? That'd work fine.
 
Okay, like the glyphs in say PES's flag creation.

In which case, colour me very impressed with the different paint jobs out there! And also perplexed why they don't allow imports of images. That'd save people a lot of bother!

Actaully I don't suppose there's a straightforward way to do that. You can't plug in a flash mem card. Though aren't USB drives supported? That'd work fine.

I was surprised too, though when you think how cunning some virus writers can be, it's perhaps better that the option isn't there. I also am very impressed though, i've only had the game a couple of days, so haven't had a good play, but i struggled to even make a white stripe, so kudos to those who have the skill
 
So, uhh, after about 6 hours of playing this game, I was yearning for something besides a circuit. I remembered doing some rally-esque destination races in the original game. So, I loaded the original Forza up and sure enough there is the point-to-point category. What happened to the point to point races? It looks like they were dropped. Highly disappointing. I thought sequels were supposed to be bigger and better? ;)

And you know what else? I'm actually really disappointed with the graphics. Besides resolution, they really don't blow me away compared to Forza 1. Most disappointing is the blurry texturing on the track. How bout some anisotropic filtering, devs?! Instead I get to watch the game draw tire tracks 50 ft ahead of me. LOL at that. The lack of adequate AA is excusable, I suppose, in consideration of the 60 fps frame rate. (But, that assumes you just ignore the supposed nearly-free 4X AA claim/understanding for Xenos.) The HDR is seems pretty extreme too, if that's what it is. Things seem a little too contrasty, IMO.

Ah well. I'm kinda bummed out over the game I guess. It has some slick racing and the physics seem quite well honed, but there shoulda been some more variety to the racing (ala point to point). And turn on the AF next time, please. I moved past watching mip map borders once I got a Radeon in 2001. Yikes.

Oh and how come they had to make selling prize cars worthless? Uhhh, isn't that a wee bit unrealistic? Were they just wanting to artificially make the game harder? It's a fairly controversial choice, IMO. I have a zillion highly-rare-and-fabulous prize cars to sell and they're all worth $100. LMAO.
 
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So...

I've spent some time tuning. Been interesting. I wanted something that ate corners for breakfast.
I'm not very good, but I've produced a car I'm happy to drive :)

I also thought I'd paint it up in 'racing' style. Quite simple, nothing too fancy.
I wanted something slightly intimidating at the front especially. So here is my swanky new Audi RS4

http://hungryspoon.com/random/forza/rs4_4.jpg
http://hungryspoon.com/random/forza/rs4_1.jpg
http://hungryspoon.com/random/forza/rs4_2.jpg
http://hungryspoon.com/random/forza/rs4_3.jpg
 
Apologies for resurrecting this thread, but I have to reply to phat one more time.

Anyway, this is my last post on unsprung mass on this thread. You are free to have the last word if you wish.
I hope you at least read this. You will learn a thing or two about physics.

The paper I linked is hardly handwaving, and contradicts pretty much everything you've said about unsprung mass and body motion. The paper is laying out results for practical car parameters, so you can't really dismiss it by saying that its "increased stiffness" result is only noticeable at unrealistic extremes.
I never said the paper is handwaving, I said your arguments are. And did you actually read the paper and its graphs? You are quoting qualitative statements and completely ignoring the quantitative analysis. You have absolutely no idea what "increased ride stiffness" means in terms of body movement and are just assuming it's a big impact.

The paper does not contradict everything I said, and in fact supports it. I will use this paper you linked to show you how wrong you are about the impact of unsprung mass.

In this graph you can see how 1.5x the unsprung mass changes the local minimum in the phase angle from 7Hz to 8Hz.
IMG00034.GIF

Very low sensitivity to unsprung mass, just as I said earlier, and this is just a few degrees of phase angle. For any visually perceptible metric, unsprung mass has even less of an effect.
Turn10's modelling of what appears to be zero unsprung mass (or unsprung mass that is very very wrong) is an "equally ridiculous extreme case".

BTW, the replay mode has a frame-step mode that does allow you to see wheel displacement deltas frame-to-frame.
Okay, so you see a large frame to frame displacement with wheel contact. A half cycle per frame corresponds to a frequency of 30Hz.
IMG00035.GIF

"Adhesion is the minimum percentage of remnant vertical tire contact force between the tire and the road surface during vertical oscillation of the wheel. This percentage is calculated by taking the ratio of the minimum remnant vertical load to the static weight (vertical tire contact force) on the suspension tester."

So at 25Hz, there is still 75% adhesion. For you to see a gap between the tire and the road in the replay, you'd need 0% adhesion on the graph. Not only are you way off on your assertion, but the unsprung mass has little effect (and it's in the opposite direction anyway) on adhesion at this frequency.

Only at the lower frequencies do you see a difference, but it's a horizontal squeezing. The heavier unsprung mass has slightly less adhesion at 9Hz, but slightly more at 13Hz. The only way unsprung mass will make the wheels come off the track is if the dampers are completely shot, as I mentioned before and is illustrated in this graph.

So whether it is the analysis of the paper in your link or the math that I tried to explain to you, unsprung mass has almost no visually perceptible effect on wheel or body motion.

I know first hand it sucks to be wrong. Even Chalnoth, who is a physics major learning some pretty advanced stuff, messed up some basic Newtonian mechanics in a thread about cars and torque. However, try to learn something here. Subjective/intuitive physics (e.g. zero unsprung mass = perfect contact, non-zero mass = visual separation) are never guaranteed regardless of how correct and obvious it seems. Only when you do the math or analyze a simulation will you truly understand what's going on.
 
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Mintmaster,
I always enjoy your posts, but I think your efforts are wasted in the console forum. Too many dolts who worship "brand" rather than "technology". But please, carry on. Some of us are learning something.
 
Apologies for resurrecting this thread, but I have to reply to phat one more time.

I hope you at least read this. You will learn a thing or two about physics.

I never said the paper is handwaving, I said your arguments are. And did you actually read the paper and its graphs? You are quoting qualitative statements and completely ignoring the quantitative analysis. You have absolutely no idea what "increased ride stiffness" means in terms of body movement and are just assuming it's a big impact.

The paper does not contradict everything I said, and in fact supports it. I will use this paper you linked to show you how wrong you are about the impact of unsprung mass.

In this graph you can see how 1.5x the unsprung mass changes the local minimum in the phase angle from 7Hz to 8Hz.
IMG00034.GIF

Very low sensitivity to unsprung mass, just as I said earlier, and this is just a few degrees of phase angle. For any visually perceptible metric, unsprung mass has even less of an effect.
Okay, so you see a large frame to frame displacement with wheel contact. A half cycle per frame corresponds to a frequency of 30Hz.
IMG00035.GIF

"Adhesion is the minimum percentage of remnant vertical tire contact force between the tire and the road surface during vertical oscillation of the wheel. This percentage is calculated by taking the ratio of the minimum remnant vertical load to the static weight (vertical tire contact force) on the suspension tester."

So at 25Hz, there is still 75% adhesion. For you to see a gap between the tire and the road in the replay, you'd need 0% adhesion on the graph. Not only are you way off on your assertion, but the unsprung mass has little effect (and it's in the opposite direction anyway) on adhesion at this frequency.

Only at the lower frequencies do you see a difference, but it's a horizontal squeezing. The heavier unsprung mass has slightly less adhesion at 9Hz, but slightly more at 13Hz. The only way unsprung mass will make the wheels come off the track is if the dampers are completely shot, as I mentioned before and is illustrated in this graph.

So whether it is the analysis of the paper in your link or the math that I tried to explain to you, unsprung mass has almost no visually perceptible effect on wheel or body motion.

I know first hand it sucks to be wrong. Even Chalnoth, who is a physics major learning some pretty advanced stuff, messed up some basic Newtonian mechanics in a thread about cars and torque. However, try to learn something here. Subjective/intuitive physics (e.g. zero unsprung mass = perfect contact, non-zero mass = visual separation) are never guaranteed regardless of how correct and obvious it seems. Only when you do the math or analyze a simulation will you truly understand what's going on.
Quoted for truth
 
I've been playing this game for a month -aprox.- and while I love it because it's a great SIM, it falls short as a game. It's a VERY solid racer game but I miss the feel of competition in that dull Career Mode.

Well, to make a long story short this is what I wrote this in Fm.net forums regarding the subject:

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/thread/422757.aspx

It's the best game on the console to date but it's far from flawless. If they deliver a game with some brand new features in FM3 most probably it'd be unparalleled, but time will tell.
 
I've been playing this game for a month -aprox.- and while I love it because it's a great SIM, it falls short as a game. It's a VERY solid racer game but I miss the feel of competition in that dull Career Mode.

Well, to make a long story short this is what I wrote this in Fm.net forums regarding the subject:

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/thread/422757.aspx

It's the best game on the console to date but it's far from flawless. If they deliver a game with some brand new features in FM3 most probably it'd be unparalleled, but time will tell.
I agree with a bunch of your post over at the FM forums. I'd also ask: why is the grid organised so the best car is at the front? At least reverse that to give the lesser cars more of a chance (this applies to online multiplayer too).

I was expecting to put hundreds of hours in to FM2, and as it stands I'm in the 20s as far as level goes in Career mode and I have no compulsion to really go any further, and with Arcade completed and online multiplayer sucking so much (we really need a B3D online FM2 meet one night/weekend), I'm just about done with it.

Career mode, with the way your garage is organised and the way you progress and complete single challenges, just feels broken.
 
I agree with a bunch of your post over at the FM forums. I'd also ask: why is the grid organised so the best car is at the front? At least reverse that to give the lesser cars more of a chance (this applies to online multiplayer too).

I was expecting to put hundreds of hours in to FM2, and as it stands I'm in the 20s as far as level goes in Career mode and I have no compulsion to really go any further, and with Arcade completed and online multiplayer sucking so much (we really need a B3D online FM2 meet one night/weekend), I'm just about done with it.

Career mode, with the way your garage is organised and the way you progress and complete single challenges, just feels broken.

Agreed, Forza 2's career mode is certaily a dissapointment, they made several big mistakes, and you can really feel the missing 4 circuits that should've been sprinkled throughout the various events.

I think the flaws are basically:
- Events are too long, rewards too small. At higher levels, leveling your character is a a serious chore.
- Tracks far too repetitive. 7 laps on Mugello, 9 laps in NYC, 7 laps in Suzuka wash ince repeat...
- AI never makes mistakes, ever, the same car will always win the race 99% of the time. The other 6 or 7 cars may as well not even be on the track.
- Can't sell prize cars, making it even more of a chore to earn money

Basically, they took a big step backwards from Forza 1 which had a great career mode and was actually fun to work through.
 
I agree. It's like they cut most of my favorite tracks. I'm really missing the point-to-point races (Fujimi Kaido!) and some of the regular tracks like Blue Mountains and Alpine Ring. I'm hoping that they left those out so that they can include them in some DLC at a later point (good news is that new DLC is coming very soon, hopefully there's something there).

The car sorting/searching feature also took a huge step back from Forza1 too. It wasn't perfect then either, but it was a hell of a lot easier to find a car in your garage than it is in Forza2.

I'm also dumbfounded that for a relatively serious racing sim they have no cockpit camera view at all.

Anyway, here's my first attempt at custom paint... B3D themed of course...


 
Okay, like the glyphs in say PES's flag creation.

In which case, colour me very impressed with the different paint jobs out there! And also perplexed why they don't allow imports of images. That'd save people a lot of bother!

Actaully I don't suppose there's a straightforward way to do that. You can't plug in a flash mem card. Though aren't USB drives supported? That'd work fine.

Wouldn't that add extra textures to the game and from what I'm gathering aren't these layers just vectors which usually don't take up that much memory if I'm correctly.
 
I'm also dumbfounded that for a relatively serious racing sim they have no cockpit camera view at all.
Oh God, YES. The camera options are a big part of why online sucks for me, actually. People who driving using the front bumper cams can't see people to the left or right of them, resulting in collisions ahoy. Those collisions leave people being massively pissed off, not least because the penalties for leaving the course are such an unweighted mess, and tempers flare.

If there's one thing that'll put me off playing online games with voice more than anything else, it's someone verbally abusing me or other players, usually because they made the initial mistake!

Last night I played online and really enjoyed it, though, because it was with people I know personally and took it seriously, apologised when making mistakes, let people catch up if they'd wrongly nudged someone off, etc. It was great fun, and I'd like to experience that again and again, but it won't happen for me if I just join random races. So an organised B3D meet would rock, hint hint.
 
Agreed, Forza 2's career mode is certaily a dissapointment, they made several big mistakes, and you can really feel the missing 4 circuits that should've been sprinkled throughout the various events.

I think the flaws are basically:
- Events are too long, rewards too small. At higher levels, leveling your character is a a serious chore.
- Tracks far too repetitive. 7 laps on Mugello, 9 laps in NYC, 7 laps in Suzuka wash ince repeat...
- AI never makes mistakes, ever, the same car will always win the race 99% of the time. The other 6 or 7 cars may as well not even be on the track.
- Can't sell prize cars, making it even more of a chore to earn money

Basically, they took a big step backwards from Forza 1 which had a great career mode and was actually fun to work through.

I agree with most everything you said, except the AI does makes mistakes, I've seen them crash in NYC's first turn and go off road in other circuits..
 
Agreed, Forza 2's career mode is certaily a dissapointment, they made several big mistakes, and you can really feel the missing 4 circuits that should've been sprinkled throughout the various events.

I think the flaws are basically:
- Events are too long, rewards too small. At higher levels, leveling your character is a a serious chore.
- Tracks far too repetitive. 7 laps on Mugello, 9 laps in NYC, 7 laps in Suzuka wash ince repeat...
- AI never makes mistakes, ever, the same car will always win the race 99% of the time. The other 6 or 7 cars may as well not even be on the track.
- Can't sell prize cars, making it even more of a chore to earn money

Basically, they took a big step backwards from Forza 1 which had a great career mode and was actually fun to work through.

AI does make mistakes. I agree to most of the other points though, and il like to add another flaw to the list:

Even on the "Hard" setting and driving without assists, its to easy to win
 
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