ZOE2 tgs trailer
- Thread starter Tiberius
- Start date
Johnny Awesome
Veteran
Thanks PC-Engine. It's interesting that the PS2 is just now beginning to catch up to the Shenmue demo. It would be interesting to see what Yu Suzuki could do with more powerful hardware like the Xbox.
marconelly!
Veteran
PC-Engine, you have made your mind, so there seems to be no point in trying to change that, but I'd just like to address some of your points:
Don't be so sure. There isn't a single DC game (except maybe for JSR, I'm not sure) that has that feature. Shenmue was thriving for realism, and I'm absolutely sure it was not a developer's decision but more a hardware limitation or the lack of time (although they spent years doing it and fine tuning the engine). I know DC could do it in theory, but with complex demo like that it would probably result in FPS being too low, or just not looking good enough. Again, theorizing of what the machine could do means nothing if noone has ever done it.
SH3 has dynamic lights and atually animated objects moving around in the scene. So both camera and light sources are movable.
Actually, it does. Look that long heared woman. When she moves her head, her hair animates accordingly, falling on her shoulders. Young girl's hair is also animated, and very finely and realistically. Watch phone scene, for example.
Shenmue does the same thing in it's cut scenes and in-game, but frankly, I don't understand your point here. Of course they are going to use LOD - offline rendered movies use different LOD for characters that are farther away. Why is it wrong using less detail when you wouldn't be able to see the extra detail on the model that is farther away, anyways?
I hate using the rolleyes icon, but this one just screams for it
Again, just compare the actual games. Compare the models, the lighting, the textures, the shadows (not only self shadows, SH3 has what looks like unified lighting model where shadows are being cast on everything) There is no 'catching up' here. SH2 graphics were already more impressive technically then Shenmue, and this simply leaves it in the dust.
Don't be so sure. There isn't a single DC game (except maybe for JSR, I'm not sure) that has that feature. Shenmue was thriving for realism, and I'm absolutely sure it was not a developer's decision but more a hardware limitation or the lack of time (although they spent years doing it and fine tuning the engine). I know DC could do it in theory, but with complex demo like that it would probably result in FPS being too low, or just not looking good enough. Again, theorizing of what the machine could do means nothing if noone has ever done it.
SH3 has dynamic lights and atually animated objects moving around in the scene. So both camera and light sources are movable.
Actually, it does. Look that long heared woman. When she moves her head, her hair animates accordingly, falling on her shoulders. Young girl's hair is also animated, and very finely and realistically. Watch phone scene, for example.
Shenmue does the same thing in it's cut scenes and in-game, but frankly, I don't understand your point here. Of course they are going to use LOD - offline rendered movies use different LOD for characters that are farther away. Why is it wrong using less detail when you wouldn't be able to see the extra detail on the model that is farther away, anyways?
I hate using the rolleyes icon, but this one just screams for it
Again, just compare the actual games. Compare the models, the lighting, the textures, the shadows (not only self shadows, SH3 has what looks like unified lighting model where shadows are being cast on everything) There is no 'catching up' here. SH2 graphics were already more impressive technically then Shenmue, and this simply leaves it in the dust.
There was a Quake 1 mod/CS project I read up on a while ago at some US University, "Non-Photorealistic Rendering" (NPR).
The students had modified the Q1 source to render everything in 3 pre-set ways.
1. To look like it had be sketched by pencil
2. To look like it had been drawn as a blueprint
3. To look like it had been painted w/brush strokes.
Unlimited SaGa immediately struck me as looking like it was rendered much like #1 and #3. These are just screenshots, you have to download the .exe and see them in motion... absolutely amazing.
There's source and all the docs up on the website for you Devs here to check out.
If anyone in the know could possibly explain how the rendering works in not-Dev-speak, it'd be appreciated!
http://www.cs.wisc.edu/graphics/Gallery/NPRQuake/
zurich
The students had modified the Q1 source to render everything in 3 pre-set ways.
1. To look like it had be sketched by pencil
2. To look like it had been drawn as a blueprint
3. To look like it had been painted w/brush strokes.
Unlimited SaGa immediately struck me as looking like it was rendered much like #1 and #3. These are just screenshots, you have to download the .exe and see them in motion... absolutely amazing.
There's source and all the docs up on the website for you Devs here to check out.
If anyone in the know could possibly explain how the rendering works in not-Dev-speak, it'd be appreciated!
http://www.cs.wisc.edu/graphics/Gallery/NPRQuake/
zurich
marconelly!
Veteran
I stand corrected. However, I believe models in SA2 are all cartoon like and much simpler compared to Shenmue demo or SH3.
Regarding the low texture detail, look at the car interior, it's very sparse texture wise AND polygon wise. The reason for that is obvious. Most of the poly crunching power were devoted to the characters leaving little left for the rest. Also remember that the camera and lights are scripted. You can't move them at will. Ingame you do have control, but the detail has already been decreased from those of the cutscene.
Also notice that the use of fog or pitch black darkness cleverly relieves the engine from having to display huge draw distances. Being the style of game that it is allows that clever technique.
Anyway the pics are up so all the viewers can decide for themselves. 640x480 frame buffer grabs would've been nice for comparison instead of those high res PR devkit renders 8)
Also notice that the use of fog or pitch black darkness cleverly relieves the engine from having to display huge draw distances. Being the style of game that it is allows that clever technique.
Anyway the pics are up so all the viewers can decide for themselves. 640x480 frame buffer grabs would've been nice for comparison instead of those high res PR devkit renders 8)
archie4oz said:
The frame-buffer size and display capabilities of a DTL and a PS2 are the same...
Well then that means those high rez renders were running at very low framerates if they're indeed frame buffer grabs. Obviously they've been antialiased also. So what would your guess be? They sure aren't 640x480 fb grabs
marconelly!
Veteran
PC Engine, it would also be fair if could get the actual frame buffer shots of Shenmue demo, then, as the actual demo doesn't have any of the antialiasing your pictures got by photographing the screen.
marconelly!
Veteran
True, but I'm just saying - if we can't provide real (non-antialiased) shots of Shenmue demo, it would be unfair to ask for non-antialiased shots of SH3 either, if we are comparing them.
Besides, everyone knew DOA3 shots were high res PR, but the game looked pretty much just as good...[/quote]
I understand what you're saying but Shenmue is still being rendered at 640x480 while the SH3 shots were rendered at 1506x1147, downsampled to 640x480 THEN AA. If we remove AA from both we'd still have 640x480 vs 1506x1147 without AA. Even the downsampled nonAA 640x480 SH3 shot will have a quality advantage over the nonAA Shenmue ones since downsampling through a filter in Photoshop isn't the same native 640x480 rendering. I've already discussed this before in the other SH3 trailer thread.
Also didn't DOA3 have aliasing artifacts? If it didn't then it must have been using AA. Does SH3 have AA running on PS2?
Also didn't DOA3 have aliasing artifacts? If it didn't then it must have been using AA. Does SH3 have AA running on PS2?
marconelly!
Veteran
It did, but they were minor. Nothing to complain about, really, especially on a smaller TV that I have. I suspect SH3 will be the same.
Logan Leonhart
Newcomer
PC-Engine said:You don't have control over characters in cutscenes
But the PS2 IS rendering the rest of the environment, unlike Shenmue´s demo.
BTW, I just saw some Xbox pics of Shenmue 2, and Ryo´s model doesn´t even compare to what is shown in the demo, not even in cutscenes. It´s far, far less detailed. I don´t know what you´re arguing really, in this case you´re comparing a demo with 0% of chances of happening in the real game (DC´s poligon budget was just too low) versus a game that is being displayed on a real game. It really is lacking in the logic department.
