Xbox Series S [XBSS] (Lockhart) General Rumors and Speculation *spawn*

[Jay]

PS5DD is still a full PS5, is on another league compared to LH.
If the main selling point must be the price, they really need to be priced at about half the price of it.

Yes i agree, but as an example if PS5 was able to come out $50+ cheaper than xsx, and PS5DD another $50+ on top, that would put a lot of pressure on Lockharts price point.

But like I said I don't see a reason why PS5 would be so much cheaper to make than xsx that MS couldn't match the price.
But that was the only reason I could see for not releasing it.

 

[iroboto]

You think Microsoft ordered and paid for the development of a full next-gen console but is holding out the decision to release it based on the PS5's price?

I don't think that makes sense considering the cheer amount of money this already cost Microsoft. The decision to release Lockhart was already made, probably well over a year ago.

Yea, there are also other possible applications for it in lower powered devices if this doesn’t pan out.

If PS5 is coming in at $399. And LH is $399. It’s DOA.
Even at $449 and $399, that $50 dollar difference is not wide enough of a gap.

LH really needs to come in a significant amount below PS5 and XSX to be worth while to release.

 

[eastmen]

Yea, there are also other possible applications for it in lower powered devices if this doesn’t pan out.

If PS5 is coming in at $399. And LH is $399. It’s DOA.
Even at $449 and $399, that $50 dollar difference is not wide enough of a gap.

LH really needs to come in a significant amount below PS5 and XSX to be worth while to release.

I don't see a way that LH and PS5 are the same price. Ms would have completely messed up if that were to happen , esp with estimates out being that the ps5 and xsx are similar in cost to manufacture

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I don't see a way that LH and PS5 are the same price. Ms would have completely messed up if that were to happen , esp with estimates out being that the ps5 and xsx are similar in cost to manufacture

Because by accounts there aren't that many differences between LH and XBSX to save money on. 4TF is a third of XBSX, but the CPU isn't, so all round maybe $50 off the SOC. RAM isn't even a half of XBSX, maybe another $50 there. What about the SSD? How much slower is it? How much can MS limit that part without affecting the platform overall?

Unless MS are going to subsidise the hardware, where can they shave $hundreds of the XBSX BOM to make the rumoured spec LH at a budget price?

 

[BRiT]

Because by accounts there aren't that many differences between LH and XBSX to save money on. 4TF is a third of XBSX, but the CPU isn't, so all round maybe $50 off the SOC. RAM isn't even a half of XBSX, maybe another $50 there. What about the SSD? How much slower is it? How much can MS limit that part without affecting the platform overall?

Unless MS are going to subsidise the hardware, where can they shave $hundreds of the XBSX BOM to make the rumoured spec LH at a budget price?

What if it's a Digital Only console, so they make up for it on the digital purchases by eliminating secondary used games sales?

Though I'm with you on how much difference can be in the BOM, maybe $50 for SOC, $50 for RAM, $25 for Optical. What about the savings for PCB, Case, PSU, Cooling; some $X where I don't have any idea on what that would be, would it be half of Series X costs?

 

[MrFox]

Because by accounts there aren't that many differences between LH and XBSX to save money on. 4TF is a third of XBSX, but the CPU isn't, so all round maybe $50 off the SOC. RAM isn't even a half of XBSX, maybe another $50 there. What about the SSD? How much slower is it? How much can MS limit that part without affecting the platform overall?

Unless MS are going to subsidise the hardware, where can they shave $hundreds of the XBSX BOM to make the rumoured spec LH at a budget price?

If the xbsx is around 500 BOM, I can see close enough to 200 removed:
$35 less memory
$50 SSD 512GB
$50 smaller SoC
$25 from ODD and playback license
$15 no vapor chamber, much smaller HS, smaller PSU
$10 no expensive machined aluminum frame, trim down assembly

 

[fehu]

Because by accounts there aren't that many differences between LH and XBSX to save money on.

That's purely a MS's problem.

 

[eastmen]

Because by accounts there aren't that many differences between LH and XBSX to save money on. 4TF is a third of XBSX, but the CPU isn't, so all round maybe $50 off the SOC. RAM isn't even a half of XBSX, maybe another $50 there. What about the SSD? How much slower is it? How much can MS limit that part without affecting the platform overall?

Unless MS are going to subsidise the hardware, where can they shave $hundreds of the XBSX BOM to make the rumoured spec LH at a budget price?

They are able to fit a lot more LH on a wafer than XSX. You also have savings on the motherboard , you have a lot smaller / cheaper psu and cooling system. The system itself is much smaller and so you save there and on packaging and shipping.

The ssd is the same so MS will get savings by buying in much larger numbers.

Well we will know soon enough

 

[cheapchips]

I think the form factor is still a mystery too. Might not be a standard TV set-top.

BTW, it was free(or low monthly fee) with a 2 year Game Pass subscription I think that could be really disruptive.

Tommy McClain

The One range is £17.99 (Sad) to £21.99 (X) a month on All Access. They've already said it's part of their plan for Scarlett. I'd have thought they could offer Series S in the low twenties if it has a <£300 shelf price.

 

[cheapchips]

Brad Sams has a titbit from a Microsoft document he'd seen. For employees taking Series devices home for testing they recommend disguising an X in a PC tower case. For Lockhart they recommend hiding it in a OneS/X case. The OneX is only 6cm high, so guess that means we're getting a thin rectangle. Damn it. I liked the Xcube or micro tower designs!

 

[disco_]

Or, you could make 1,000 XBSX SOC on a wafer, say you get 30 defects, when running @ speed X, then keep increasing X until your get the desired ratio, of pass / fail units.
In this case XBSX vs LH soc's. It helps you push the high end further up, while also satisfying whatever internal need you have for LH chips.
so XBSX ends up @ X + 200Mhz, and you get the 500/500 ratio you want?
I mean it's possible...
But I don't think it is likely, and it is still a woefully in-efficient way to use the die space.

Is the possibility of LH outselling XSX not even being considered?
If LH does come a year or so after xsx, there's a chance of MS stockpiling defect xsx chips to have enough for launch, right? I find that unlikely but it would go along with your thinking.

 

[BRiT]

Moved hypothetical: https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/...ed-last-generation-lockhart-switch-out.61856/

 

[AzBat]

Brad Sams has a titbit from a Microsoft document he'd seen. For employees taking Series devices home for testing they recommend disguising an X in a PC tower case. For Lockhart they recommend hiding it in a OneS/X case. The OneX is only 6cm high, so guess that means we're getting a thin rectangle. Damn it. I liked the Xcube or micro tower designs!

I seen rumors on Era last year that it was flat(First, Second). Sounds like it might be a set-top box again though. :/

Tommy McClain

 

[disco_]

I seen rumors on Era last year that it was flat(First, Second). Sounds like it might be a set-top box again though. :/

Tommy McClain

Both originated with hmqgg who went on to double down on neither ps5 nor xsx being rdna2.
Not to say I don't believe it. No real reason for LH to look like xsx other than brand identify.

 

[AzBat]

Both originated with hmqgg who went on to double down on neither ps5 nor xsx being rdna2.

I think the jury is still out on that one.

Tommy McClain

 

[disco_]

I think the jury is still out on that one.

Tommy McClain

Which part? Rdna2?

 

[smithg]

I personally think Lockhart is a brilliant move for Microsoft if they can execute and message it well (prove it’s next-gen all the way, only 1080p). The benefits are numerous:

• It gives them a the lowest price next-gen console by default, while still giving them the prestige of (sort of) the most powerful console.
  
• It lets them sell next-gen to the casual gamer a year or two early, meaning they could potentially sell at lot more next-gen consoles than Sony in the first two years. In some ways this is similar to releasing their console a year ahead of the competition in terms of potential momentum building. All those One S sales they would have had in the next 2 years get added straight to their count of the next-gen base early in its life.
• By skipping over the last-gen console sell-a-thon that usually happens over the next year or two (selling tons of your old console at $199 or $149) they can focus all their marketing energy toward next-gen.
• This expansion of their next-gen user base makes their platform more attractive to developers to target in the first year or two.
• It’s a real leg-up for GamePass because they will have a low cost entry point that doesn’t have any limitations in terms of what games it can play (no next-gen only games on the One S).
• If it costs $200-250, it becomes a near impulse buy for Sony or Nintendo fans that want a cheap second console to dabble in GamePass and Halo.
• The price can only go down from here, meaning buying into the XBox platform could get ridiculously cheap in 4-5 years.

This list doesn’t even include more speculative things like using the smaller SoC in other form factors like mobile devices, or giving it away with 2 year GamePass subscriptions. I think this will end up being really disruptive in a positive way. I just hope in practice it doesn’t hold any Series X games back, and that the mob doesn’t turn on MS for this, which can influence casual gamers.

 

[cheapchips]

No real reason for LH to look like xsx other than brand identify.

That's quite a big reason since they're a family of devices.

I'm going with a 5 x 15 X 30 case. Ultra thin XSX! That's a 3rd of the XSX volume. That should give enough space for a single mb design.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I personally think Lockhart is a brilliant move for Microsoft if they can execute and message it well (prove it’s next-gen all the way, only 1080p). The benefits are numerous:

If it costs $200-250, it becomes a near impulse buy for Sony or Nintendo fans that want a cheap second console to dabble in GamePass and Halo.

From the other thread:

The current rumor is that everything, including CPU clock, is the same apart from GPU and memory.

The rumours don't tally though. We're told LH is the same as XBSX but less GPU and less RAM. Okay, so that means it can't be a lot cheaper. But then we're told it's notably cheaper. Okay, if it's a lot cheaper, it must be reduced in quite a lot of areas. No no no, it's basically an XBSX just with 1/3 rd the GPU running 1080p, but also half the price.

This promise is just unrealistic. It can't be everything. It's either close to XBSX at which point it has a highish BOM and only a low price if MS subsidise it, or it's a fair bit different from XBSX with some extensive price reduction. How are you accounting for it being the same as XBSX and yet as cheap as $200??

 

[Mskx]

Hmm... Small enough to hide in an One X shell... Hmm... Don't feel they have to announce it early and have no problems letting the questions pile up because they know the answer will be interesting...

Hmm... Almost as if it could be a modular portable device! ;P

I WILL NOT GIVE UP ON THIS!