Xbox 360 1080p – Why Not?

[expletive]

are you referring to HD over component or this:

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showpost.php?p=833903&postcount=34

I dont even know what that is! I was referring to Dolby TrueHD audio which is on some HD-DVD and BR discs. It is lossless compression and requires more bandwidth than what is avilable over optical SPDIF. The only ways to transmit it are over 6 analog cables or over HDMI, neither of which the 360 is currently configured to handle. Good find on the mystery chip btw! I wonder what it is...

 

[Carl B]

All I'm really wondering is if 360 games at 1080p will render internally at 1080p, or if there's some sort of scaling somewhere in the chain between GPU and screen.

 

[Tap In]

All I'm really wondering is if 360 games at 1080p will render internally at 1080p, or if there's some sort of scaling somewhere in the chain between GPU and screen.

I think the Shane Kim interview said:

While Kim expects that some third-party game developers will create 1080p games, he said that 720p will likely remain the norm.

so I'm guseeing it's possible just not likely

of course that does not address rendering vs upscaling but that has not really been addressed in the PS3 1080p titles either directly, iirc.

 

[Carl B]

Well, not really the hard verification I'm looking for though.

IMO, those same statements apply equally to PS3 to an extent.

 

[Tap In]

Well, not really the hard verification I'm looking for though.

IMO, those same statements apply equally to PS3 to an extent.

yea, sorry... I acknowledge as much in my stealth edit.

 

[-=P3tRaN=-]

Also here's another question of mine on the HD-DVD player: USB - so PC supported as well?

I am sure I read this somewhere today (that the 360 hd dvd will play on some new windows) but because of the info overload today, I just cant remember where.

edit:
I cant see this on m$ sites though.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/musicandvideo/hddvd/default.aspx , http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/x/xbox360hddvdplayer/default.htm
and of course if it is achievable after all on windows, a least minimum spec must be declared.

 

[Tap In]

All I'm really wondering is if 360 games at 1080p will render internally at 1080p, or if there's some sort of scaling somewhere in the chain between GPU and screen.

details confirmed

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showpost.php?p=834839&postcount=97


including

On gaming, the machine supports both scaling of 720p games to 1080p, and native games running at 1080p resolution. It is up to game developers to decide which way to go.

 

[blakjedi]

Annnnnnnnd.... My new LCD (a 46" Samsung LN - S4695D) accepts and displays 1080p video over component!

 

[Paul_G]

Technically speaking (but I ain't no expert!) I see no reason why you couldn't render a 1920x1080 frame and then output it in two fields for 1080i, or one field for 1080p. You'd be drawing your backbuffer and have 1/30th of a second for that, while at the same time you'd either be drawing the FB in progressive mode at 30 Hz, or interlaced in two passes over 60 Hz.

If the output hardware can handle 1080i @ 60 Hz, it should be able to handle 1080p @ 30 Hz barring some encoding jiggery-pokery to provide the right type of signal. I'm guessing this is their solution. We'd need to check the technical specs to see if they list the full 1080p speeds or just a subset of them.

That is certainly how the standalone HD DVD players work. Like the 360, the HD-A1 is incapable of outputting 1080p, however all that happens AFAIK is the content on the disc (which is 1080p30) is converted to 1080i60 and then deinterlaced at the TV end assuming your TV is capable of that. I expect the 360, especially in movies, to do the same.

I would expect the same to apply to games, if it were locked at 1080i60, then your TV would deinterlace the input to 1080p30...

 

[expletive]

That is certainly how the standalone HD DVD players work. Like the 360, the HD-A1 is incapable of outputting 1080p, however all that happens AFAIK is the content on the disc (which is 1080p30) is converted to 1080i60 and then deinterlaced at the TV end assuming your TV is capable of that. I expect the 360, especially in movies, to do the same.

I would expect the same to apply to games, if it were locked at 1080i60, then your TV would deinterlace the input to 1080p30...

Actually the content on HDDVD and BR is 1080p/24sf which is basically a direct frame for frame film transfer (since film is 24fps). However, a lot of displays cant sync to anything but 60hz (or 50hz for pal) so the native signal is converted to 1080/60i to conform with those sets. Ideally you have some hardware that can properly deinterlace that signal and get back to the native one and then display it on a device that can do multiples of 24hz (48hz, 72hz) to get one step closer to 'video nirvana'.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Actually the content on HDDVD and BR is 1080p/24sf which is basically a direct frame for frame film transfer (since film is 24fps). However, a lot of displays cant sync to anything but 60hz (or 50hz for pal) so the native signal is converted to 1080/60i to conform with those sets. Ideally you have some hardware that can properly deinterlace that signal and get back to the native one and then display it on a device that can do multiples of 24hz (48hz, 72hz) to get one step closer to 'video nirvana'.

What's wanted is a TV that doesn't run at a refresh rate per se, but just awaits a signal before drawing. That way we could elliminate tearing by supporting non-uniform refresh rates instead of being locked to a refresh or suffering artefacts. And movies or other alternative frame-rate media could be played at native framerate. I can understand refresh for CRTs, but surely modern tech can avoid that neccessity?

 

[expletive]

What's wanted is a TV that doesn't run at a refresh rate per se, but just awaits a signal before drawing. That way we could elliminate tearing by supporting non-uniform refresh rates instead of being locked to a refresh or suffering artefacts. And movies or other alternative frame-rate media could be played at native framerate. I can understand refresh for CRTs, but surely modern tech can avoid that neccessity?

Yep, my DLP projector can run at anywhere between 50hz and 85hz vertical refresh. I dont know if its the same with all fixed-pixel display technologies but i dont see a reason why not. I'll see if i can dig up more info. on the details.

 

[blakjedi]

That is certainly how the standalone HD DVD players work. Like the 360, the HD-A1 is incapable of outputting 1080p, however all that happens AFAIK is the content on the disc (which is 1080p30) is converted to 1080i60 and then deinterlaced at the TV end assuming your TV is capable of that. I expect the 360, especially in movies, to do the same.

I would expect the same to apply to games, if it were locked at 1080i60, then your TV would deinterlace the input to 1080p30...

Hunh? Who said that? By all recent accounts it can. It was just never a standard resolution for games...

 

[London Geezer]

Looks like 1080p is slowly coming through. Eventually (i expect by this time next year, maybe a bit later) 1080p will be the new "thing".

I mean, look at this:

Loads of new sets from Sony, lots of them 1080p, now more affordable.

Sharp is following the trend releasing a 1080p panel which is even cheaper than the Sony, and the rest of them will start releasing 1080p panels very soon here in Europe. All of them able to take 1080p from HDMI.

Personally i'm holding off till at least PS3 is a few months old to buy a new HDTV. By then a nice 1080p will be as affordable as a medium-high-ish end 720p panel today.

 

[scooby_dooby]

The real question is how these new TV's will handle 1080i input, and whether there will be a perceptible difference between native 1080p, and a deinterlaced 1080i signal. Could end up being much ado about absolutely nothing if these sets do a good job of deinterlacing 1080i.

 

[ban25]

I don't know if it's been posted already, but Amir from AVSForums has weighed in on 1080p for the 360:

""1080p is supported over VGA for DVD, HD DVD and gaming output. And yes, AACS does allow 1080p over VGA (classified under authorized "computer monitor outputs").

For component, you get gaming up to 1080p, and 1080i for HD DVD. DVD only works at 480p over this connection. The latter two are due to restrictions in DVD CCA and AACS rules for DVD and HD DVD playback respectively.

On gaming, the machine supports both scaling of 720p games to 1080p, and native games running at 1080p resolution. It is up to game developers to decide which way to go. "

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8478750&&#post8478750

Also, here's an interesting comparison:

"I tested 54 of the 2005 model year's high-definition digital displays, including some of the latest 1080p TVs, to determine which manufacturers' internal scalers process all 1,080 lines and which do not. More than 48 percent of the displays I tested failed to process and deinterlace the 1080i signal properly, losing up to one-half of the vertical resolution. How is this possible?

A number of TV vendors opt to use a simpler and cheaper way to process 1080i signals. They do it by handling one 540-line field at a time and upconverting the one-half-resolution picture to the given digital HD set's native resolution. To get a sense of how askew this is, note that HD displays have 720, 768, or, in the case of the highest-resolution HDTVs, 1,080 horizontal lines. "

http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookmeup/0506halfrez/

 

[Geo]

Looks like 1080p is slowly coming through. Eventually (i expect by this time next year, maybe a bit later) 1080p will be the new "thing".

I mean, look at this:

Loads of new sets from Sony, lots of them 1080p, now more affordable.

Sharp is following the trend releasing a 1080p panel which is even cheaper than the Sony, and the rest of them will start releasing 1080p panels very soon here in Europe. All of them able to take 1080p from HDMI.

Personally i'm holding off till at least PS3 is a few months old to buy a new HDTV. By then a nice 1080p will be as affordable as a medium-high-ish end 720p panel today.

I'd love to have a nice 1080p TV. Our 62" 720p is noticeably worse pic than the 42". But I think we'll wait until 2008, as I'm really leery about some of the 1080p games in TVs right now, stuff is changing too fast, and we're not exactly unhappy with our current TVs. . .

 

[RobertR1]

Geo,

2008 is a good time. SED sets, "deep color" and other features should be common on sets, along with networking support for direct streaming from a HTPC/STB. That's when I plan to cycle out my 720p/1080i sets also.

 

[NavNucST3]

Geo,

2008 is a good time. SED sets, "deep color" and other features should be common on sets, along with networking support for direct streaming from a HTPC/STB. That's when I plan to cycle out my 720p/1080i sets also.

I really want to believe in SED, but they are just now tooling their lines. I think by then people may just not care and feel that everything else we have is "good enough"

 

[JardeL]

Are Double Layer discs enough for 1080p games ?