Wii success will not last, says developer

[wco81]

Nintendo has always had a lot of cash.

But by the time the N64 rolled around, they had little internal capacity to develop best tech. designs.

Apparently they weren't willing to spend the money it would have taken to join the tech. arms race between Sony and MS. But they've always had the wherewithal to do so if they wanted.

Oh well, humanity has regressed in other realms besides game graphics.

 

[.Melchiah.]

You can rip on Wii game sales all you want but the PS3 is the second system in a row sony has released that is not selling games at all.

What's the first? PSP or PS2? Because when the PS2 was released the game sales weren't that great, but the DVD sales suddenly went up. I can definitely see similarities in the current situation.

 

[T Ghost]

Ok, I'm officially lost.

I read about casual gamers caring more about gameplay than graphics and that this is the main reason for the Wii's early success but what gameplay that the Nintendo’s Wii brought until now that doesn't exist on any PlayStation, Xbox, Game Cube and Nintendo64?

The only new thing that I see on Wii is that instead of moving two tiny sticks with your thumbs and pressing a plethora of buttons with the right thumb and the indicators you point a remote control to a TV screen, shake it, move a tiny stick with you left thumb, press a few buttons with your right thumb in order to reach your goal in the game.

A data input mechanism innovation, yes. A Gameplay revolution, sorry, but I don't see where it is. I don’t see a different gameplay because I don't see a change on the conditions to victory, on the obstacles placed in the player's way in order to difficult him to reach victory status, on the rewarding systems, on the performance feedback, in none of the Wii's games none of these gameplay elements seems to be new or different from games that were there before it’s release.

Also I don't agree with somebody that think that a hardcore gamer is less hardcore if they enjoy the freshness that the change on the input mechanism that the Wii provides.

So we get to the conclusion that the Wii has the same games that PlayStation, Xbox, Game Cube and Nintendo64 ever had and even with the fact that most of the Wii games are mini game collections, I don't see anything new or different on gameplay on the Wii Titles.

So there must be something with the Wii that do not scare the soccer moms and attract casual and hiatus gamers.

One thing that the Wii has different is the level of complexity of its games. That is maybe where the prejudice of the highly experienced gamers, AKA hardcore gamers, comes from.

The majority of Wii games are not very complex and once fun in games is basically obtained by exploring the natural tendency of the human being of having pleasure in the process of mastering knowledge in order to use a given set of tools and skills (winning the challenge) in a manner that will enable them to change the environment around them in order to produce desirable results (the reward and motivation), the more experienced is the gamer, the more complex the tasks of mastering knowledge, tools and skills have to be in order to generate a perception of accomplishment and the consequential release of endomorphin, the mother of the feeling that we call fun.

That would make the very reason that repels inexperienced gamers from highly complex games be the reason that makes hardcore gamers do not feel attracted to simplistic games.

Very important in this equation is the complexity level of the tool set given. Make it too complex and you lose the inexperienced individuals that would become too frustrated before they could acquire enough skills to master them, no endomorphin release, and no fun. Make it too simple and the highly experienced individuals would have the perception that they actually accomplished something, no endomorphin release, and no fun.

Also important is the complexity of the reward, what can you and why you would change your environment (or fight to keep the status quo of the environment). Make it too complex and you confuse the inexperienced, no motivation to seek the mastering of skills and tools, you have got yourself a bored individual. Make it too simplistic and now bore the experienced individual that has no motivation to pursue its mastering.

The level of challenge and motivation needed to generate pleasure is different to different levels of experience.

All that gibberish (that floods my mind and almost drives me crazy some days...) is a very German way to say that no matter how much the Wii sells, there will always be a market for the PS3's and 360's unless Nintendo find a way to convince third party publishers to release really complex games (in challenge and motivation) exclusively for the Wii and somehow make those games significantly better in someway than the PS3 and 360 complex games. And it's not changing the data input mechanism that Nintendo will manage that.

From my point of view, the reason that the Wii is selling like hotcakes (by the way, where do hotcakes sells very fast? Certainly not in my neighborhood) is due to the marketing focus from Nintendo on attaching the Wii’s image mainly to games with a very low level of complexity on the elements that I called of challenge and motivation here and with the freshness feeling that Wii’s different, simpler and more intuitive data input system generates on people.

Sorry for bothering you all with my crazy thoughts but it fells better now that I spilled it out...

 

[_xxx_]

The only new thing that I see on Wii is that instead of moving two tiny sticks with your thumbs and pressing a plethora of buttons with the right thumb and the indicators you point a remote control to a TV screen, shake it, move a tiny stick with you left thumb, press a few buttons with your right thumb in order to reach your goal in the game.

Not really. Have you actually ever played it? Just something simple like aiming with the Wiimote insead of with pad/buttons is a HUGE difference, no need to go further. And playing say tennis like in realk life is nothing like playing such a game with a gamepad. It's not "just a little difference", it's literally two completely different things.

 

[Npl]

Not really. Have you actually ever played it? Just something simple like aiming with the Wiimote insead of with pad/buttons is a HUGE difference, no need to go further. And playing say tennis like in realk life is nothing like playing such a game with a gamepad. It's not "just a little difference", it's literally two completely different things.

might be true if your movement would affect how you hit the ball. The way it is, the game simply realizes "swing the racket" and always does the same - no effect on angle or momentum, just a few key poses. So gameplay aint different than having a few (digital) buttons, which was the point of Ghost`s post I believe.

XBox360 and PS3 will have their own share of "simple" games, but have way more potential in terms of gameplay - just look at LBP.

If you really want to jump when you jump, look no further than Eyetoy or those Guitar-Games(ie. just use a peripherial if the game really requires it). Point is that a Wiimote wont be an advantage on a broad range of games either. Hypothetically and exagerated, if Wii shipped with a Guitar, would you expect the users to be happily buying just Guitar-Games for 5 years? (I know the Wiimote is more versatile than a guitar, dont go there)

 

[_xxx_]

Not the gameplay is that different, but the way YOU feel the game. You do actually move, react, use your whole body and it IS a completely different feeling, even if we're talking about the very same game on two systems. Or the same game on Wii played with a Wiimote vs. pad.

If you want to see the reactions of non-gamers, take a look at the "Wii game system" thread in www.kramerforum.com ( it's a Kramer guitar forum with younger/older audience who are pretty much all non-gamers). There one guy asked about Wii, then several tried it and bought it and are very satisfied with it, raving about the easy workout at home and fun they had with the whole family and wondering that the little thing gave them sore muscles on the next day.

THAT is the audience that made Wii successful and spreads the word of mouth, not the gamers.

 

[archangelmorph]

Not the gameplay is that different, but the way YOU feel the game. You do actually move, react, use your whole body and it IS a completely different feeling, even if we're talking about the very same game on two systems. Or the same game on Wii played with a Wiimote vs. pad.

If you want to see the reactions of non-gamers, take a look at the "Wii game system" thread in www.kramerforum.com ( it's a Kramer guitar forum with younger/older audience who are pretty much all non-gamers). There one guy asked about Wii, then several tried it and bought it and are very satisfied with it, raving about the easy workout at home and fun they had with the whole family and wondering that the little thing gave them sore muscles on the next day.

THAT is the audience that made Wii successful and spreads the word of mouth, not the gamers.

Eye-toy does exactly this..

 

[Shifty Geezer]

That's true, but the mainstream haven't picked up on EyeToy. We were playing Wii on the weekend, 8 friends, half of which had never seen Wii. One of them organises socialising parties and was interested in Wii as something to spice them up. They took the games well and enjoyed them. But also, they found the movement responses to be rather limited on occasions. The old 'Wii Tennis doesn't do what you want' argument. One guy didn't even look at the screen and flicked his wrist around, and still played okay. The party organiser said (of Boxing) that it'd be better if you could see yourself on the screen. I mentioned EyeToy, which she had seen before, and that piqued her interest, especially as Play3 supports 4 players.

Both solutions offer something, and neither is ideal. EyeToy needs plenty of light, and won't work with people in the background, but is a far more accurate in many situations. Wii at the moment is quite primitive, and although lots of people don't mind, a fair many get frustrated with the lack of relation between movements and responses that the games they played have. Wii's also expensive for 4 players. And has limited range. On small sets that's not an issue, but with larger TVs where you stand further back, the pointer becomes unresponsive. At least on the Wii I've used. Probably at about 3 metres, the pointer aspect becomes unusable.

I dare say EyeToy could satisfy a lot of these Wii gamers, but Sony missed the trick. They didn't reach out and educate them. Nintendo did, and now reap the rewards of targeting that market directly.

 

[archangelmorph]

I dare say EyeToy could satisfy a lot of these Wii gamers, but Sony missed the trick. They didn't reach out and educate them. Nintendo did, and now reap the rewards of targeting that market directly.

Agreed..

I only hope they do a better job with the new one.. Especially since the hardware of both the camera and the console provide a much greater canvas for developers to do some *very* crazy/interesting/innovative things.. (There's enough going on around here for me to be able to say that that is a definite certainty..)

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The new PS3ye could be awesome in function, notably because of it's low-light ability. Supposedly it works with just the light coming from a monitor. However, it'll never usurp Wii as the system + PS3ye costs way too much. The only hope for Sony is that the system appeals more to a household, offering both the Wii-like gaming for the casual members, and hardcore gaming, + media features. Which may happen. But competing against Wii is IMO not possible now, unless Sony were to change their tack and gun for it 100%. Having motioned towards the all-in-one box for years though, they're either unwilling or unprepared for that.

 

[archangelmorph]

The new PS3ye could be awesome in function, notably because of it's low-light ability. Supposedly it works with just the light coming from a monitor. However, it'll never usurp Wii as the system + PS3ye costs way too much. The only hope for Sony is that the system appeals more to a household, offering both the Wii-like gaming for the casual members, and hardcore gaming, + media features. Which may happen. But competing against Wii is IMO not possible now, unless Sony were to change their tack and gun for it 100%. Having motioned towards the all-in-one box for years though, they're either unwilling or unprepared for that.

Oh definitely!

I hardly expect the PSEye to go up against the Wii, However Sony does have alot of scope to promote the brand (in light of the Wii's "proof of profitability" of the casual market..) much more than they did last time around..

The Eye-toy, although a cheap piece of kit, didn't do very well purely because of a lack of support on Sony's end which in turn didn't generate a great deal of interest from developers at the time (nobody really cared about party games and it wasn't so sure there could even be a sustainable market for it..)

This time around however things are different..

PSEye has all the technical limitations of the previous incarnation removed, the potential of consumer interest is visible in other areas (the Wii, casual games etc..) as well as in the eye-toy (I think the we did over 2 million units with the last play game in europe..) and Sony are kicking it off with a title (Eye of Judgement) which truely showcases the flexibilty of the peripheral to developers in terms of creating truely innovative IP which should hopefully maintain mass market appeal from both casuals and hardcore alike..

If Sony can really push the peripheral then that will really help get the ball rolling and in terms of 3rd party support, there's even greater room for them to jump in with the advent of PSN downloadable titles [which could support it] and even playstation Home (not to mention cross-connectivity with the PSP)..

It really only needs for Sony to make the first move and surely by the time the PS3 is at a much more mass market accepted price point, it could really reinforce the inceptive for consumers to jump in and try out the platform which could provide so much in the way of vast and varied user experiences..

It that respect the PSEye would be more of a competitor to the Guitar Hero and Singstar peripherals of the world than the Wii itself [which seems destined to steamroll on into the console history books regardless of the competition]..

 

[Npl]

Not the gameplay is that different, but the way YOU feel the game. You do actually move, react, use your whole body and it IS a completely different feeling, even if we're talking about the very same game on two systems. Or the same game on Wii played with a Wiimote vs. pad.

If you want to see the reactions of non-gamers, take a look at the "Wii game system" thread in www.kramerforum.com ( it's a Kramer guitar forum with younger/older audience who are pretty much all non-gamers). There one guy asked about Wii, then several tried it and bought it and are very satisfied with it, raving about the easy workout at home and fun they had with the whole family and wondering that the little thing gave them sore muscles on the next day.

THAT is the audience that made Wii successful and spreads the word of mouth, not the gamers.

The problem is though, how many "wiggle your stick" games do you need? Speaking of eyetoy, the craze weared off after a while, and even though Eyetoylay 2,3 improved on the predecessors, it hardly warranted a buy if you had the original. But Nintendo might be different, after all it manages to sell the same game in different names and colors since years (starts with P, ends with M, with okemo in the middle).

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The problem is though, how many "wiggle your stick" games do you need?

How many "press buttons and wiggle your thumbstick" games do you need? Controller novelty will always wear off, and then it's a matter of what you do with the software that determines success or not. In the case of EyeToy, it didn't progress much beyond party games. In the case of Wii, if the people buying it are buying it for the party games, they grow old pretty quick. Basically one or two party game collections covers much of the content you can get, and subsequent games aren't going to add much variety. If those buying Wii for it's party games now migrate to something deeper, or just by EA Fitness Trainer 2007/2008/2009/..., Wii will keep going.

 

[_xxx_]

Eye-toy does exactly this..

Yes, so? Both are fine, they don't exclude each other. I'd be fine with it as well, but I don't need a PS2/3 for anything at all.

Though since you have the weight of something in your hand and thus a bit more "real" feedback, at least psychologically it "feels"somewhat different.

 

[_xxx_]

The problem is though, how many "wiggle your stick" games do you need?

I'm happy with one, since I just fire it up once or twice a week in-between things I'm doing otherwise.

As said, it's just easy, mindless fun for in-between for me and nothing more. Thus I'll neever need an XBox or PS, since I'd never play them anyway and I have no fun at all with any sort of gamepad regardless.

The novelty doesn't wear off, what does wear off is eye-candy loving. As happened here. I was a HC-gamer on and off for many years, but now I don't have ANY fun in PC gaming or regular console games. Nor do I have an orgasm when I see the latest flashy-GFX thingy, been there, done that. More fancy pixels on screen doesn't increase fun or cover up for bad/outdated game and level design. Playing the same games we already had ten years ago but now flashier doesn't do it for me.

 

[Arwin]

Thus I'll neever need an XBox or PS, since I'd never play them anyway and I have no fun at all with any sort of gamepad regardless.

So black and white! You think that playing Super Rub-a-Duck or Motorstorm, or soon bowling or flying a dragon, is going to be that different?

Let's just stick with the original comment that you had about the Wii satisfying your need for now.

 

[_xxx_]

So black and white! You think that playing Super Rub-a-Duck or Motorstorm, or soon bowling or flying a dragon, is going to be that different?

Let's just stick with the original comment that you had about the Wii satisfying your need for now.

Well yeah. I'd rather say that my needs changed. I never cared for pads and that's why I never owned any console before, I simply never could force myself into using a pad since to me personally, it sucks.

EDIT: the fact that Wii didn't force you into using a gamepad was definitely the main reason for me to buy it in the first place. So it's less about Wiimote and more about "no fwcking gamepads".

 

[archangelmorph]

Yes, so? Both are fine, they don't exclude each other. I'd be fine with it as well, but I don't need a PS2/3 for anything at all.

Though since you have the weight of something in your hand and thus a bit more "real" feedback, at least psychologically it "feels"somewhat different.

True it does feel different.. I don't know whether one could infer that to be "better" or not.. I guess that would be a subjective arguement..

I do however believe that because of that fact, a camera-based solution has increased flexibility in some areas (more information can be derrived from image processing than you can get from the fixed, input sensor range the Wiimote has.. The system interpreting the number of fingers a player is holding up being a perfect example since this is something the Wii obviously could never do..)

However it also lack flexibility in other areas, namely the 2 dimensional nature of input providing a lack of [or limited] depth perception being a big one..

 

[_xxx_]

I think the next gen of either Wii or PS will have somthing vastly improved as far as the controls go. Looking forward to that.

 

[archangelmorph]

I think the next gen of either Wii or PS will have somthing vastly improved as far as the controls go. Looking forward to that.

Or a combination thereof..

(I'm a bit of a gamepad die hard and so i'd be sad to lose it..)

Maybe shipping the console with both a gamepad and a full motion sensing/waggle peripheral would work out.. then again it may just confuse consumers but I doubt it..