Tim Sweeney says G70 > R520

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

Maybe it is, but the marketing relationship taints any chance of it being taken as a genuine, uninfluenced opinion.

And how many people who post here have a "genuine, uninfluenced opinion", eh?

Probably those people that own, or develop on, cards from both companies and who arn't being paid money by them. Maybe people like Dave Baumann that deliberatley keep themselves equally distanced from both camps.

Whilst I perfectly understand why people are sceptical of what Sweeney says (I am too) I don't actually believe he would say one card is better than another if the complete opposite was true, as it would be too damaging to his credibility and, by association, Epic. So long as he's at the cutting edge of 3D engine design (and I think UE3 is testament to this) then his opinions at least deserve some respect because he walks the talk.

True, but when asked similar questions in B3D correspondence not so long ago (with Reverend or Dave Baumann IIRC), he as much as said "don't ask people like me who have a vested interest in one company or the other". Presumably because you won't get a straight answer out of those people with vested interests.

When R300 was totally killing NV30, we didn't see Sweeny supporting ATI, because he couldn't be seen to be publicly supporting Nvidia's opposition. In that light, his endorsement of G70 has to be seen with that Nvidia relationship (and the restrictions it brings) in mind.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Newell genuinely preferred the R300 over the NV30 (and gave many reasons why). It's really not so clear cut as saying "developers prefer Nvidia product", because that isn't always the case.

I didn't say "devs prefer nVidia product". I said one particular (and well respected) dev did last generation, when its obvious that the vast majrity of the consumers would choose the opposite way.

The point is, Carmack said why he chose it for development, and it was understandable.

 

[Sunrise]

Whilst I perfectly understand why people are sceptical of what Sweeney says (I am too) I don't actually believe he would say one card is better than another if the complete opposite was true, as it would be too damaging to his credibility and, by association, Epic. So long as he's at the cutting edge of 3D engine design (and I think UE3 is testament to this) then his opinions at least deserve some respect because he walks the talk.

You wanna hear the truth ? I don´t think he cares about: "What we think".
Tim Sweeney has personally stated in an interview, that "his thoughts are were the money is" (and i´m sure a lot of people would think the same in his position) - there is no way to misinterpret this.

The relationship between him and NV began quite some time ago, if it weren´t for that, it´s just to say: NV made everything possible, ATI was always second. Which is, well, half true. But that doesn´t really give him credibility, either, does it ?

I know, from personal exchange with some epic dudes, that R300 was praised highly for it´s abilities and epic clearly took ATI seriously at that stage. Just a side note really, but i know perfectly how Tim thinks when he says something like that. It just isn´t HIS real opinion. It´s highly clouded with NDAs and secrets and money - i can´t really blame him for that, can I ?

 

[Pete]

Just saw the interview. Not worth reading into it, IMO.

(BTW, normally I'd agree that the different needs of a developer and a consumer should be considered, but--completely ignoring business relationships like TWIMTBP and the fact that he just presented for PS3, aka Sony + nV--I do think Tim was talking from a consumer's POV throughout the interview.)

 

[inefficient]

Marketing aside...

Carmack genuinely preferred the NV30 over the R300. That's all that needs to be said about the potential differences between a developer perspective vs. consumer.

Newell genuinely preferred the R300 over the NV30 (and gave many reasons why). It's really not so clear cut as saying "developers prefer Nvidia product", because that isn't always the case.

Newell is not a GFX programmer. He can only base his opinions based his impressions from his team members. Since he was more of a project manager, I can see him being frustrated with the FX line since it was costing them a lot of manhours which may have been spent better elsewhere.


Carmack had nothing against the NV30 because nvidia basically designed it for him. And he got exactly what he wanted out of them.


Sweeney, although he may not directly do the GFX programming himself anymore, is still one of the worlds lead 3d engine architects. I don't think you can write off his hardware preferences because of Epic's partnership with nvidia.

Remeber, Epic is strongly aligned with MS now too. GoW is one of the best things the 360 has going for it and MS is the publisher, (ie they are paying them to develop it)

 

[thatdude90210]

Remeber, Epic is strongly aligned with MS now too. GoW is one of the best things the 360 has going for it and MS is the publisher, (ie they are paying them to develop it)

Except this thread is about the G70 vs the R520. The xbox360 does not have the R520, so Epic's relationship with MS isn't an issue here.

 

[Acert93]

Sweeney, although he may not directly do the GFX programming himself anymore, is still one of the worlds lead 3d engine architects. I don't think you can write off his hardware preferences because of Epic's partnership with nvidia.

1. It was to a NV fan site

2. He is paid to endorse NV products; in turn I am sure he gets extra good treatment (like John and Gabe do also)

3. Liking a product from a developer POV is different than a consumer POV. Consumers want the fastest card, with the most features, at the best prices. Developers want support from IHVs and friendly tools. Epic has a close relationship with NV and they obviously would get extra good treatment. Just like ATI gives Valve.

4. Game developers will always prefer an engine if it makes their game play best/run fastest, even if it is not the best overall. They are going to tell players to get the card that best suits their product, not products in general.

As an owner of a 6800GT (and a R 9700 before that and Voodoo II and Riva and TNT2 before those) I could care less. Wait for the benchmarks. Evaluate how they run, what features they can realistically do, and how much performance for cost they have. Buying a card becase Gabe or Tim said they like it best is silly UNLESS they are the only games you plan to play... and even then you need to be careful!

 

[hoom]

Carmack had nothing against the NV30 because nvidia basically designed it for him. And he got exactly what he wanted out of them.

He did state in his .plans that when he was coding for r300 he found that he could get better image quality for less performance hit & with less tweaking.
Also he found it frustrating that changing the NV30 path a small bit often broke it until the next driver release

 

[WaltC]

I've said it many times, but it's disappointing to me to see software development houses shamelessly plugging one hardware IHV in favor of the other--devs should be neutral unless the disparity between the currently shipping products made by the respective IHVs is so wide that it cannot be denied (as between R300 and nV30, for instance.) Plugging R300 over nV30, after all, was only repeating what was obvious to everyone (including nV, which formally cancelled nV30 production.)

Sweeney, imo, is a fairly blatant offender here, though. I recall that he made similar statements in '02 and '03 citing his "preference" for nV3x over R3x0 (based primairly on "fp32" which nV30 was never any good at doing in the first place, IIRC, not to mention that Sweeney's own current software at the time did not support fp32 anyway)--right up until the time nV cancelled nV30 production, that is...

Now, he's doing it again it would appear, so I hope that his crystal ball is much less cloudy this time around--but money has a way of obscuring the clearest of foresight--and I think that's a shame, really, when unsupportable bias is seen stemming from the top game development houses. Their loyalty and focus should be towards the consumers who purchase their games as opposed to being for sale to the highest IHV bidder simply for the sake of inter-IHV competition and PR promotionals.

 

[mito]

I just watched Tim Sweeney's interview. His face reminded me of Michael Jackson's face... Some similarities...

 

[digitalwanderer]

I've said it many times, but it's disappointing to me to see software development houses shamelessly plugging one hardware IHV in favor of the other--devs should be neutral unless the disparity between the currently shipping products made by the respective IHVs is so wide that it cannot be denied (as between R300 and nV30, for instance.) Plugging R300 over nV30, after all, was only repeating what was obvious to everyone (including nV, which formally cancelled nV30 production.)

Sweeney, imo, is a fairly blatant offender here, though. I recall that he made similar statements in '02 and '03 citing his "preference" for nV3x over R3x0 (based primairly on "fp32" which nV30 was never any good at doing in the first place, IIRC, not to mention that Sweeney's own current software at the time did not support fp32 anyway)--right up until the time nV cancelled nV30 production, that is...

Now, he's doing it again it would appear, so I hope that his crystal ball is much less cloudy this time around--but money has a way of obscuring the clearest of foresight--and I think that's a shame, really, when unsupportable bias is seen stemming from the top game development houses. Their loyalty and focus should be towards the consumers who purchase their games as opposed to being for sale to the highest IHV bidder simply for the sake of inter-IHV competition and PR promotionals.

I dunno, I kind of put developers into the same camp as IHV PR people...it's part of their job to say the things they do and you should always remember that when they're talking to you and just take it for what it is.

I don't find anything really wrong with it, it's just part of the game but at least we all sort of understand how it works.

 

[DemoCoder]

But I think I'd take Carmack or Sweeney's opinion over the opinion of anyone in this forum regardless of their involvement with IHVs.

 

[karlotta]

But I think I'd take Carmack or Sweeney's opinion over the opinion of anyone in this forum regardless of their involvement with IHVs.

on there choice of GFX card? or the opinion on there underware?( " Mr. Sweeney, boxers or briefs?") I think i would take about a half dozen posters on this forum before i would Cramack or Sweeney, on alot of the 3d side of things. Now if its there own engine they are talking about then its 50/50. That comes with reading what Carmack and Sweeney have said over the years and how it didnt jive down the road.... Heck DC id take your opinion before theres on alot of stuff.

 

[digitalwanderer]

But I think I'd take Carmack or Sweeney's opinion over the opinion of anyone in this forum regardless of their involvement with IHVs.

on there choice of GFX card? or the opinion on there underware?( " Mr. Sweeney, boxers or briefs?") I think i would take about a half dozen posters on this forum before i would Cramack or Sweeney, on alot of the 3d side of things. Now if its there own engine they are talking about then its 50/50. That comes with reading what Carmack and Sweeney have said over the years and how it didnt jive down the road.... Heck DC id take your opinion before theres on alot of stuff.

I'm with Karlotta here, I know they're more knowledgeable but I'd rather get my info from someone without an agenda/stake in it.

 

[bigz]

I'd take it with a pinch of salt... ATI seem very happy with R520, and NVIDIA are very positive about G70 too.

 

[BrynS]

Just saw the interview. Not worth reading into it, IMO...

Yeah, I would agree.

This may be premature to say on the strength of a short video clip, but his reaction to the question (body language, nervous laugh, etc) wouldn't really convince me of his own conviction in the validity of his answer, but OTOH this may resemble a completely typical Sweeney response and I'm probably talking crap anyway.

Cheers,


BrynS

 

[fallguy]

But I think I'd take Carmack or Sweeney's opinion over the opinion of anyone in this forum regardless of their involvement with IHVs.

Of course you would, they are both pro-NV.

 

[russo121]

Who cares what he says? It could be true for their engine as could be a lie.... There are more games, more engines to every taste.... the best card? let's wait and see.....

 

[wireframe]

C'mon, guys. The premise and consequent discussion in this thread is way out of proportion with anything real. In politics Sweeney's comment wouldn't even qualify as anything more than a "no comment" because he actually wasn't asked anything. "R520 or G70?" Does that question mean anything unless you read into it what you want to see?

Sweeney's reply of "G70 for sure" hardly qualifies as a quip and I think it would be fair to say that the way it was asked and answered was more jokingly and well beyond any meaningful analysis.

If you wanted to put a real spin on this, consider that one of the best interpretations you could weave was that, when asked this nebulous question, Mr Sweeney interpreted it to mean "was all you said in regards to the G70 or R520?" To which Sweeney answered "G70, for sure."

Gimmie a break. Even if Sweeney is sitting on both cards and has a preference for a definite winner, this is not the well from which the answer will be drawn.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I wonder what both cards will do to 3DMark05 and what ever Futuremark intends to release to test these cards.

US