The PS3 browser and net capabilities : Is PS3 getting Android/WebKit support?

[tuna]

If you use WebKit you have to provide the source as well (WebCore is LGPL V2 licensed). So we should find out if Sony ships it in the PS3.

 

[Npl]

If you use WebKit you have to provide the source as well (WebCore is LGPL V2 licensed). So we should find out if Sony ships it in the PS3.

Not necessary the source(LGPL), but they`d need to provide a FOSS toolchain to compile your own version Webkit and link it to the parts of the firmware using it.
My guess it that wont happen .

Best option would be to get Opera ported.

 

[patsu]

Tail waging the dog.

Perhaps we are thinking backwards. A WEBKIT browser is such an important part of any NEW WEB connected device that the hardware is chosen so that an easier port of a open source webkit like Google's is possible. And this explains Intel supporting Google, Intel providing code for Sony and others. With existing hardware drivers a port of a WEBKIT browser is a 4 hour job (article). For Sony, Intel or other hardware providers will do the heavy lifting in porting WEBKIT (HTML5). This then only leaves older hardware like the PS3 that needs support.

AGAIN, webkit browsers provide WEB tools that can be used by other applications. For the PS3 applications like those you mentioned. From a business standpoint, it's a no brainer....Sony must be porting a webkit browser to the PS3.

If you read my previous posts, I also think that Sony will have to deal with WebKit browser sooner or later to prevent falling behind. It's just that we don't know what their schedule is like. I mean we are wrong quite frequently when trying to predict their timeline (See "Cross Game Chat" and "Playstation Home").

 

[Arwin]

The day that any thing logical and sensical can be said about XMB stuff like this is the day that other regions get a say / shared responsibility or even complete responsibility over this. Until that day, Japanese whimsy rules our XMB web experience.

 

[patsu]

There could be lotsa deal makings and negotiations behind the scene too.

 

[makattack]

My understanding of a WEB-KIT is that it provides a Kit of web tools not limited to the HTML markup language.

PS3 Webkit routines are PS3 native (machine language) routines. They will become a part of the PS3 firmware.

I edited my post to make my point clearer. The vague nature of "open" makes for a legitimate-honest difference of opinion. As with all things Sony, it's hard to pin down what's happening.

Mac OS or iOS have Webkit ports and are a much smaller but growing platform. Perhaps the ease in porting due to "standards" like a WebGL in Apple platforms is attractive. The PS3 will also be an OpenGL platform that could/will support a WebGL webkit.

Webkit was originally developed by Apple for Safari. It was branched off KHTML, which was KDE/Konqeurors html rendering engine...

From the webkit wiki:
Apple employees have contributed the majority of work on WebKit since it became an independent project. Apple uses WebKit for Safari on Mac OS X, iPhone and Windows; on the former two it is also a system framework and used by many other applications. Apple's contribution has included extensive work on standards compliance, Web compatibility, performance, security, robustness, testing infrastructure and development of major new features.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebKit
http://trac.webkit.org/wiki
http://webkit.org/

As an aside, WebGL seems like it's still not a finalized spec.

http://www.khronos.org/webgl/wiki/Main_Page

Funny how they list one of the implementations as "Apple Webkit"

 

[patsu]

Yap, WebKit is Apple's and KHTML's baby.

WebGL has been in WebKit since October 2009 (about a year ago):
http://webkit.org/blog/603/webgl-now-available-in-webkit-nightlies/

WebGL is a new standard being worked on in the Khronos consortium. The work done in Khronos is only available to its members, so I can’t show you the spec just yet. But it will become public within the next few months after a review by Khronos members. The good news is that WebGL is now available in WebKit nightlies as of October 4, 2009 (r49073). So if you’re running Leopard or Snow Leopard you can try it out for yourself. WebGL runs in the HTML Canvas element, so it works very similarly to the 2D Canvas capability currently in WebKit.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Yap, WebKit is Apple's and KHTML's baby.

WebGL has been in WebKit since October 2009 (about a year ago):
http://webkit.org/blog/603/webgl-now-available-in-webkit-nightlies/

And there is Apple's WebKit2 which resembles Google's webkit. Designed for multiple processes (at the same time) to speed up the Web Browser. In addition separating processes allows for the routines in the web browser to be used by other applications.

Patsu in support of your contention that HTML5 used by Netflix and HULU would be a subset and not fully implemented.

Confirmable facts:

MLB is a 16 meg downloadable from the PSN Store application.
When first run it will upgrade to version 1.10 to a size of 7696 (you would need to disconnect the network cable to see this)
Immediately it will download to a size of 27 megs if not stopped (this will change as the UI changes). You see a baseball field icon with red balls flashing as it downloads and the PS3 HD light flashes.

This only confirms dynamic updating. It does not confirm the language downloaded/used but I suspect it's Javascript for multiple reasons (can post if asked).
The only indication something was in PS3 firmware 3.5 now in the PS3 and not needed in the Application after 3.5 was the update that reduced the size of the MLB application to 7.696 megabytes from 16 megs or 8.3 megs. I would GUESS it's a javascript engine that was in Firmware update 3.5. (8 megs is about right for Google's V8, can anyone confirm?)

Confirmable facts:

HULU is a 28 meg downloadable PSN Store application
When first run it is version 2
it will immediately download 2.02 final size 15 megs
upon connect it will download the application, final size 27+ megs (this will change with UI)

The large size of the downloads indicates graphics and pictures are being downloaded in addition to script. I do not believe it would be necessary to download graphics for a UI if a HTML markup language were being used. I.E. No HTML lines or graphics like rectangles and fills are being used which only require a few bytes description for each.

More speculation:

The streaming services Hulu and Netflix are also being provided on older less powerful TVs and Blu-Ray players. Those platforms do not have a Hard disk or the resources to run a webkit browser much less any browser. I would guess that they can use downloaded graphics and a simple compliant Javascript engine for the UI and the commands used by the HTML5 video and audio tag to support Netflix and Hulu.

With the above in mind only a javascript engine can be confirmed as probable in 3.5; other webkit tools possible but can not be confirmed. Older compliant or a new webkit engine like Google's V8 with new HTML5 API hooks for multi-media? Why update the firmware with an older javascript engine?

 

[Panajev2001a]

When browsing the web on the iPad feels as smooth as on the PS3 (or smoother), then you know there's something wrong.

PS3 has 2x the RAM, a CPU core that's clocked about 3x faster, an HDD, etc... Web browsing should be much faster than it is now.

 

[jeff_rigby]

When browsing the web on the iPad feels as smooth as on the PS3 (or smoother), then you know there's something wrong.

PS3 has 2x the RAM, a CPU core that's clocked about 3x faster, an HDD, etc... Web browsing should be much faster than it is now.

Yup, for multiple reasons Sony needs to update the PS3 browser. Everyone seems to agree it's needed but many don't believe Sony is in the process of doing it now.

Due to the nature of new webkit browsers the PS3 webkit can be implemented in pieces as they are tested and released to PS3 firmware. Only when completed can the new browser be turned on. But completed parts of the Webkit can be used by other applications now.

This is NEW and the features seen in Webkit, WebGl, Webkit2 (which is also a webGL ) are newer yet. Google's browser for the PS3 (if my guess is correct) will be a WebGL browser and Apple who originated Webkit and I think WebGL is now implementing many of the features of Google's browser with webkit2.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Not necessary the source(LGPL), but they`d need to provide a FOSS toolchain to compile your own version Webkit and link it to the parts of the firmware using it.
My guess it that wont happen .

Best option would be to get Opera ported.

Google Chromium and Opera are the best choices. But the PS3 is not the only consideration. Sony will be releasing Other platforms and has already chosen Google Webkits and Android for those platforms. Besides being free for all platforms it would be easier for Sony to share IP if they were only using one browser. It's a guess but I expect the PS3 is getting a Google browser.

From another article that discussed the size of a webkit in memory it's about 32-37 megs for one tab/page. The Javascript engine being 8 megs of that and the page 2-7 megs. That makes the webkit browser slightly more than 1/3 the size of the Netfront browser (guess). It can be reduced in size even more by custom calling routines rather than the whole browser into memory. GDDR3 memory could be used for non-critical routines but I expect the Javascript engine needs to be in Rambuss memory.

Google's thrust for Android and browsers has been for the fastest, smallest and most efficient code so that resource limited hardware platforms can be supported.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Why? What parts of Steam rely on a web browser?
Steam is built on top of IP networking, and that is crucial to all its functionality. Web browser are not enablers for IP networking, they are a use of IP networking just like Steam itself. Browsers render HTML documents. The machinations to transfer those documents (and arbitrary other data) are not provided by the browser.

In an Android OS port of a Google Chromium Webkit browser, Android is built on parts of a Linux 2.6 kernel to provide the hardware drivers. This includes IP networking support. Google TV required a full Android OS for TVs and Blu-Ray players. The PS3 does not "require" an Android OS but it can benefit from features that could be provided by Android.

We do not know if Android is being ported to the PS3 or if Chromium can run with just support from the PS3 OS. (At least I don't.)

The PS3 is missing processes to support a windows like desktop environment. One of the issues we now see due to this is that custom PS3 wrappers must be provided for XMB javascript or Java applications while on platforms like the iOS an application can be cross platform without needing a shell or wrapper. We can't have desktop widgets but can have widgets that will run inside a browser. For Desktop widgets positional on the XMB, desktop processes will need to be ported to and running on the PS3 that are now missing. Those processes can be provided by Android.

If two XMB javascript or Java applications are running at the same time then the wrappers duplicate functions and the OS is less efficient, memory is wasted. For one application depending on type, it may be more efficient as is.

Android provides the opportunity for Sony to bring the PS3 XMB OS up to the features "standard" in iOS platforms and PCs. If they do this then all hardware drivers need revisited. They may not need to be changed but to ensure no glitches and to insure efficiency they need to be examined and changed if needed to comply with Linux 2.6 standards. All codecs the same as HTML5 from Google contains codecs like H.264 and the PS3 has H.264 since day one but is it as efficient as Google's H.264? OpenGL video drivers shouldn't need modification.

My understanding is that there are "standards" for an OS and "C" and that the PS3 followed the rules. A port of Android or Chrome or Android and Chrome should not be insurmountable. It's a business decision, will Sony do it?

Regardless of the route chosen by Sony for the PS3, individual routines in a Webkit can be ported now.

 

[patsu]

Too much guesswork.

Shrinking in app size and dynamic downloading is not proof of HTML5. In particular…

The large size of the downloads indicates graphics and pictures are being downloaded in addition to script. I do not believe it would be necessary to download graphics for a UI if a HTML markup language were being used. I.E. No HTML lines or graphics like rectangles and fills are being used which only require a few bytes description for each.

This is not true. Caching may be needed regardless of whether it's HTML or HTML5 or something else. e.g., Playstation Home can use up to 12Gb for pre-caching.

The streaming services Hulu and Netflix are also being provided on older less powerful TVs and Blu-Ray players. Those platforms do not have a Hard disk or the resources to run a webkit browser much less any browser. I would guess that they can use downloaded graphics and a simple compliant Javascript engine for the UI and the commands used by the HTML5 video and audio tag to support Netflix and Hulu.

Not necessarily true also. BD-Live players can render graphics using Java. There is no real need for JavaScript. They already have a 1Gb persistent storage and built-in H.264 codecs because of Blu-ray movies.

From another article that discussed the size of a webkit in memory it's about 32-37 megs for one tab/page. The Javascript engine being 8 megs of that and the page 2-7 megs. That makes the webkit browser slightly more than 1/3 the size of the Netfront browser (guess). It can be reduced in size even more by custom calling routines rather than the whole browser into memory. GDDR3 memory could be used for non-critical routines but I expect the Javascript engine needs to be in Rambuss memory.

Unless you have the real numbers, these are just empty speculations.


I'd love to see Android ported to PS3. Unfortunately, until we see some official info or real evidence, anything is possible and also debatable.

 

[Npl]

Google Chromium and Opera are the best choices. But the PS3 is not the only consideration. Sony will be releasing Other platforms and has already chosen Google Webkits and Android for those platforms. Besides being free for all platforms it would be easier for Sony to share IP if they were only using one browser. It's a guess but I expect the PS3 is getting a Google browser.

The problem is that to comply to the LGPL, Sony would have to open up their system to allow replacement of atleast the webcore-module (contained in webkit and chromium). Theres no amount of cash that could fix this issue. Actually Im not sure how Apple gets around that, but their hardware is alot more "open" to replacing libraries than Sonys encrypted FW.
Its not free, but "free" - which in terms of the license means generating as much trouble as possible for proprietary stuff.

 

[jeff_rigby]

The problem is that to comply to the LGPL, Sony would have to open up their system to allow replacement of atleast the webcore-module (contained in webkit and chromium). Theres no amount of cash that could fix this issue. Actually Im not sure how Apple gets around that, but their hardware is alot more "open" to replacing libraries than Sonys encrypted FW.
Its not free, but "free" - which in terms of the license means generating as much trouble as possible for proprietary stuff.

So how do Android platforms get around this? How does Apple, etc?

 

[Npl]

So how do Android platforms get around this? How does Apple, etc?

I believe you could actually replace the webcore-component in the firmware when using Apples freely available SDK. You cant flash it of course (unless your hardware is hacked), but if you interpret the firmware as the work that incorporates the LGPL-Code then thats all thats needed. Surely a bit hairy situation and Im no lawyer... I`d like to know myself.

For the PS3 its easier, the firmware is encrypted and you cant replace it at all. So thats a very clear violation if you cant replace webcore at all (with available tools).

 

[patsu]

While we are at it, Google launched a Google TV website today:
http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/04/google-tv-quick-tour-shows-off-the-services-inner-workings/

Google has elaborated some on its plans, and it's all shaping up quite nicely. We're told that Turner Broadcasting has been working to optimize the websites of TBS, TNT, CNN, Cartoon Network and more for viewing on Google TV, and NBC Universal has collaborated with Google TV to bring CNBC Real-Time, an application that allows you to track your favorite stocks and access news feeds while enjoying the best financial news from CNBC directly on the TV screen. HBO GO will also be supported and the NBA has built NBA Game Time, an application that lets you follow game scores in real-time and catch up on the latest highlights from your favorite team in HD. Need more? Amazon Video on Demand will be present, and it sounds like Goog has hordes of other companies just moments away from offering compatible content portals. Hop on past the break for a quick video overview of the Apps segment.

Netflix just confirmed that 'Watch Instantly' will be fully supported on Google TV devices launching later this month.

EDIT:
Site URL: http://www.google.com/tv/

Feature set here: http://www.google.com/tv/features.html

* Search your TV
* The web is now a channel
* A new world of apps for your TV
* Your phone = remote control (Supports voice control)
* Fling a video to your television
* Watch it now
* YouTube perfected for TV (). This will probably tie in with 3D YouTube. ^_^
* Watch and browse, simultaneously
* TV gets a homepage
* Create a TV playlist
* Record from the search bar
* Rock out in your living room
* The ultimate picture frame
* Over-the-air updates

 

[jonabbey]

The problem is that to comply to the LGPL, Sony would have to open up their system to allow replacement of atleast the webcore-module (contained in webkit and chromium). Theres no amount of cash that could fix this issue. Actually Im not sure how Apple gets around that, but their hardware is alot more "open" to replacing libraries than Sonys encrypted FW.
Its not free, but "free" - which in terms of the license means generating as much trouble as possible for proprietary stuff.

That would depend on the version of the GPL or LGPL in question. GPL/LGPL v2 has no requirements that the code must be substitutable on a given device. That's why Linux can be on locked-down Android devices, Tivos, and etc.

LGPL v3. does not require substitutability of the full operating system / bootable image for any device that includes LGPL v.3 libraries, so it's a moot issue even there.

WebKit is in large part BSD-licensed, besides. It's not exclusively LGPL.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Too much guesswork.

Shrinking in app size and dynamic downloading is not proof of HTML5. In particular…



This is not true. Caching may be needed regardless of whether it's HTML or HTML5 or something else. e.g., Playstation Home can use up to 12Gb for pre-caching.



Not necessarily true also. BD-Live players can render graphics using Java. There is no real need for JavaScript. They already have a 1Gb persistent storage and built-in H.264 codecs because of Blu-ray movies.



Unless you have the real numbers, these are just empty speculations.


I'd love to see Android ported to PS3. Unfortunately, until we see some official info or real evidence, anything is possible and also debatable.

I am doing the research so that it's speculation not guess. I do appreciate your logic and your acting as devils advocate despite your belief that Sony Should be, may be doing as I believe they are doing.

Netflix IS using the HTML5 standard and Javascript! This is one of the reasons Yahoo Widgets was added to Sony products as it provides the javascript engine. The PS3 may not get Yahoo widgets, is not now listed in Bravia Internet Video as getting Yahoo widgets because we now have an engine of our own. (This changed for some blu-ray players and the PS3 some months ago, prior to that time Yahoo widgets was a listed feature. Besides indicating a javascript engine it signals a change in course probably because of the Google TV - Sony partnership and Chrome coming to the PS3 in some form.)

While the above is speculation the following links document the Javascript language necessity for products to communicate with Netflix servers.

http://developer.netflix.com/blog/read/Introducing_the_Netflix_API
http://developer.netflix.com/docs/JavaScript_APIs

I did research Webkit memory useage and the figures are accurate for later versions and may change depending on whose webkit used, OS etc. The numbers are usable as a yardstick.

The downloaded application is not cache for video. Try the apps, it's obvious.

 

[patsu]

Netflix IS using the HTML5 standard and Javascript! This is one of the reasons Yahoo Widgets was added to Sony products as it provides the javascript engine. The PS3 may not get Yahoo widgets, is not now listed in Bravia Internet Video as getting Yahoo widgets because we now have an engine of our own.

http://developer.netflix.com/blog/read/Introducing_the_Netflix_API
http://developer.netflix.com/docs/JavaScript_APIs

Yes and no. The first link says "The Netflix API includes a JavaScript API, REST API and ATOM feeds.". So it's not exclusively JavaScript. You can use any language run-time to use REST API.

I did research Webkit memory useage and the figures are accurate for later versions and may change depending on whose webkit used, OS etc. The numbers are usable as a yardstick.

The downloaded application is not cache for video. Try the apps, it's obvious.

It doesn't matter. Caching behaviour is not exclusive to HTML5 or JavaScript. Any language run-time can cache or not cache.

Also, how do you find out the memory usage of the PS3 web browser ?