The PS3 browser and net capabilities : Is PS3 getting Android/WebKit support?

[jeff_rigby]

Yes and no. The first link says "The Netflix API includes a JavaScript API, REST API and ATOM feeds.". So it's not exclusively JavaScript. You can use any language run-time to use REST API.



It doesn't matter. Caching behaviour is not exclusive to HTML5 or JavaScript. Any language run-time can cache or not cache.

Also, how do you find out the memory usage of the PS3 web browser ?

Yes you can use any language to send Javascript style API commands and you can use any language to mimic the functionality of Javascript. Despite that, Amazon servers support Javascript. Netflix has stated they are using HTML5 and are using Amazon cloud servers. Netflix is using a partial HTML5 command set and Javascript style commands. Edit: upon further research Netflix has provided a library of API calls supported by various languages. http://developer.netflix.com/page/Resources These appear to be for Database access not the UI feed.

There is a difference between media cache and script language cache. The OS treats them differently. Media cache is not persistent, Script language cache is persistent.

I did not say that this dynamic downloading of the UI proved HTML5 but it is a feature of HTML5 and easier to implement with HTML5 support. The point was the reduction in application size after an update required by the PS3 firmware update to 3.5.

How did I determine Netfront's memory usage? Well I guessed and the data used to guess was a moving target due to Sony reducing the size of the XMB in game over the last two years. The date of the article was during the reduction of the XMB size. IF at the beginning it would mean the Netfront browser was about 40 megs, if near the end 70 megs. I chose worst case and supporting that decision was the browser running out of memory despite having 2 gigs of virtual memory at the time of the article. That does not confirm my choice but only points out there is a memory leak or poor code in the browser.

 

[patsu]

Yes you can use any language to send Javascript style API commands and you can use any language to mimic the functionality of Javascript. Despite that, Amazon servers support Javascript. Netflix has stated they are using HTML5 and are using Amazon cloud servers. Netflix is using a partial HTML5 command set and Javascript style commands. Edit: upon further research Netflix has provided a library of API calls supported by various languages. http://developer.netflix.com/page/Resources These appear to be for Database access not the UI feed.

If you use REST API, you are usually responsible to build your own UI (e.g., using native language).
REST API is not JavaScript. It's HTTP-based/web services.

There is a difference between media cache and script language cache. The OS treats them differently. Media cache is not persistent, Script language cache is persistent.

I did not say that this dynamic downloading of the UI proved HTML5 but it is a feature of HTML5 and easier to implement with HTML5 support. The point was the reduction in application size after an update required by the PS3 firmware update to 3.5.

Without further details, it could mean many things. If you're using native language, you can implement the cache as you see fit.

How did I determine Netfront's memory usage? Well I guessed and the data used to guess was a moving target due to Sony reducing the size of the XMB in game over the last two years. The date of the article was during the reduction of the XMB size. IF at the beginning it would mean the Netfront browser was about 40 gigs, if near the end 70 gigs. I chose worst case and supporting that decision was the browser running out of memory despite having 2 gigs of virtual memory at the time of the article. That does not confirm my choice but only points out there is a memory leak or poor code in the browser.

It's just guess work. I don't think we have enough info to compare WebKit and PS3 web browser memory usage.

 

[Rolf N]

Javascript is a client-side language. Servers need no concept of "supporting" it. They just send the code, never execute it.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I use it fairly regularly to watch comedynetwork.ca (as gimped as it is) plus the odd bit of browsing.

The browser is *immensely* frustrating as it is dog slow, renders pages poorly, freezes up fairly often (sometimes requiring a forced PS3 reboot), does not handle many Javascript heavy sites very well, has terrible Flash video performance on a lot of sites and pops up "Do You Want To Run The Plugin?" incessantly. It also sucks that it does not let you use the full screen width.

The video performance is particularly strange in that zooming in the video using the PS3 scaler is fine (just grainy) but using the "full screen" option triggered via Javascript / HTML is usually abysmally slow (think slide show). Not for all feeds but most.

As long as it was not crazy expensive I definitely would consider paying cash for a working browser (Firefox, Chrome, Opera, etc.) as the current one sucks.

Cheers

Sony may need to address a larger issue: How does PS3 and PSP fit into the Internet ?

If they are serious about Internet integration, I think they will have to port a modern browser core to the Playstations. Sony may make PSN-specific policy decisions, but technically they need to be on par with the mainstream.

On the casual gaming front, the world is running away/ahead with web games. SOE is not as visible as it should. To the casuals, the Playstation family is not known to run simple games already on their favorite devices (like AngryBird on iPad/iPhone). Very few Playstation IPs are known to the casuals (e.g., LittleBigPlanet, Ratchet & Clank). The Flash/iPad/phone games are free or low cost too.

On the app front, PS3 is still rather limited. The recent Photo Gallery and Video Editor apps managed to keep PS3 up-to-date (Photo and video upload are 2 of the top surveyed use cases for Internet communities worldwide). It is a welcomed update, but they are not setting any trend here.

I hope the PS3 and PSP(2) become more open (read/write to SMB drives, RemotePlay/Desktop for PCs & Macs, platform neutral video rental, etc.). Some of their IPs should leak to Internet communities in a meaningful way. The Facebook spamming mechanism cannot be relied on.

The PSN+ packaging is a mixed bag. While it fails to articulate values to many consumers, there is some forward thinking network business model there. Unfortunately, (as usual), it's only partially done. Unless they focus and get their act together, they may continue to lag behind user expectation. It's the same old piece-meal approach. Simply giving us a WebKit browser doesn't really move the game forward (It's a great start though).

EDIT: The Google TV move is interesting but again, Sony prices the TV too high. >_<
Someone else will take the initiative and popularize it. I haven't heard any major talk after the initial launch. Should bring the functionality to PS3 instead.

It depends on what Sony wants to achieve. I think if they are gunning for a network media platform, browser tech is pretty strategic (Think Apple bringing iOS and its collection of apps to AppleTV).

They can sidestep the entire browser stack by offering a remote desktop feature though (e.g., project/upscale PC, Mac and iPad screens to HDTV). The Move controller should make large screen TV UI more usable. But this is not the same thing as having the apps running on PS3 itself. I surmise that all the consoles will have a web browser (or web browser platform tech) before we know it.

Your last two posts reflect my views also. :smile:

There is a rumor of a Android application that supports PC remote desktop, it is supposed to be provided with the Chrome OS. It will probably make it's way into the App store or possibly free to Android supported platforms. The PC remote desktop application provided via an Android application gives an idea of both Android performance and what Android apps may make possible. Remote desktop will probably need the full package of Android OS port tools with those tools running to support windows processes on the PS3.

RE: Google TV on PS3, yes for that also.

Not mentioned but implied, WebGL makes possible WEB games with near native language performance depending on javascript performance. This is what will become the standard on all browsers. Another guess.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Javascript is a client-side language. Servers need no concept of "supporting" it. They just send the code, never execute it.

The Netflix application appears to use, as the Netflix director of Web operations stated, a dynamically updated UI that should use javascript as the director goes on to say they are moving to Amazon servers that support HTML5. There is direct evidence of a dynamic UI being used for both HULU and MLB PS3 applications. The reduction in size of both applications after firmware 3.5 of a minimum of 8 megs supporting my speculation of a javascript engine port to the PS3.

The discussion we are having centers on Netflix support for other languages for the dynamically updated UI. My position is that the recent firmware update to the PS3 (3.5) included a webkit javascript engine and a WEBKIT browser upgrade to the PS3 is now more likely and possibly on-going (may take months before it's turned on). Patsu is keeping me honest.

 

[jonabbey]

REST often uses JSON (JavaScript Object Notation) for data transfer, but that's as far as the JavaScript requirement for talking to the Netflix servers go.

Surely you wouldn't argue that the XBox 360 Netflix App is secretly an HTML 5 browser that they've locked down?

 

[jeff_rigby]

REST often uses JSON (JavaScript Object Notation) for data transfer, but that's as far as the JavaScript requirement for talking to the Netflix servers go.

Surely you wouldn't argue that the XBox 360 Netflix App is secretly an HTML 5 browser that they've locked down?

The first Netflix App on the Xbox used Silverlight and Playready for the DRM. Almost a year ago Netflix announced they were going to Amazon servers which supported HTML5 and they would have dynamically updatable User Interfaces. The current Netflix app appears to support only a few features of HTML5 (no HTML) and Javascript for the UI. This I expect for the least common denominator on hardware supported. The same is true for MLB and Hulu.

ESPN3 insisted on a more robust HTML5 support in the Xbox for their service and they got it. The E3 demo appeared to use quite a few HTML4 features, HTML5 too probably but we can't tell from watching. And yes, it now appears that they have the tools for a browser in the Xbox and have it "locked down".

See several messages ago about Newell, Steam and his criticism of Xbox for it's closed system.

Sony (PS3) is again behind Xbox in that we have seen no concrete evidence of a new browser in the PS3. There is evidence that suggests Sony is in the process of porting a webkit browser to the PS3.

 

[patsu]

REST often uses JSON (JavaScript Object Notation) for data transfer, but that's as far as the JavaScript requirement for talking to the Netflix servers go.

Yap ! JSON (braces) or XML (angular brackets). ^_^

The first Netflix App on the Xbox used Silverlight and Playready for the DRM. Almost a year ago Netflix announced they were going to Amazon servers which supported HTML5 and they would have dynamically updatable User Interfaces. The current Netflix app appears to support only a few features of HTML5 (no HTML) and Javascript for the UI. This I expect for the least common denominator on hardware supported. The same is true for MLB and Hulu.

ESPN3 insisted on a more robust HTML5 support in the Xbox for their service and they got it. The E3 demo appeared to use quite a few HTML4 features, HTML5 too probably but we can't tell from watching. And yes, it now appears that they have the tools for a browser in the Xbox and have it "locked down".

See several messages ago about Newell, Steam and his criticism of Xbox for it's closed system.

Sony (PS3) is again behind Xbox in that we have seen no concrete evidence of a new browser in the PS3. There is evidence that suggests Sony is in the process of porting a webkit browser to the PS3.

HTML5 is needed for a full blown browser experience. It will allow us to visit any public Internet sites without explicit agreement between Sony/MS and the service providers.

For one-to-one specially built client applications, HTML5 saves development time and cost. If all these apps runs on the same HTML5 run-time and can be mashup'ed and evolved quickly, then it's pretty powerful too.

 

[patsu]

ABC Nightline has a clip on GoogleTV:
http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/05/sonys-google-tv-controller-outed-on-abcs-nightline-video/

 

[jeff_rigby]

ABC Nightline has a clip on GoogleTV:
http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/05/sonys-google-tv-controller-outed-on-abcs-nightline-video/

This is wild speculation:

http://www.tqcast.com/2010/10/05/will-sony-announce-google-tv-for-ps3-oct-12th/

Yesterday the first official Google TV site launched and no doubt left a permanent time stamp in history as apps officially make their way to televisions. Several applications such as CNBC Real-Time, Napster, NBA Game Time, Netflix, and Pandora are all shown working on Google TV devices with many more apps to follow very soon. One of the most desired would of course be Hulu Plus but at the moment, no details have surfaced.

However, Hulu Plus and Netflix functionality are already on the PS3. Strangely enough Sony promised PS3 owners disc-less based Netflix streaming by the end of October. Is this a coincidence or does Sony have something up their sleeve?

Many PS3 owners have complained about the current Netflix application along with the lackluster built-in browser and the fact that SCEA has failed to release a TV tuner device for the United States. But when you look at the actual features of Google TV, each one of those issues can be easily addressed by adding Google TV to the PS3. Netflix instantly becomes disc-less. Google Chrome replaces or becomes an additional option to the built-in PS3 browser. Sony no longer needs a TV tuner device for US customers because of their numerous streaming options, yet they could introduce tuner hardware October 12th that will integrate your cable or satellite subscription with all the other media options on Google TV.

Surely Google would have no objection to a potential 38 million plus console owners adopting Google TV. This would give them a potential base to compete with Apple in the future.

But what about Sony? Are they willing to take the gamble and change the dynamics of the XMB to accommodate another operating system?
Why not? They gave consumers the ability to install other operating systems until unsavory characters abused the privilege. Not only will this be a huge boon to their customers as many will no doubt upgrade their PS3s, but many more will buy entirely new consoles to get Google TV functionality.
With the addition of Google TV, comes additional value to the PS3. Value they can use to squash all the hype surrounding Microsoft’s new programs like ESPN 3 on Xbox Live. Sony gives you Google TV and all you have to pay for is the hardware while Microsoft charges you $60 a year for less functionality. Then again, Sony could choose to include Google TV in their PSN Plus package and share some of that revenue with its supporting cast.

Either way, Google and Sony would be a partnership that few could rival and a value that is impossible to top. Think of all the voice activated apps on Android that could be used on the PS3 with the camera mic or via Bluetooth. The synergy between Google TV, Android, and the PS3 is something both companies could build upon for years to come.

On October 12th, perhaps Sony’s PS3 slogan becomes irrefutably true: “It only does everything.”

My speculation that there is a javascript engine in PS3 firmware 3.5 and Sony is in the process of porting a WebGL browser suddenly seems understated.

 

[patsu]

As far as speculation goes...

The end of October rollout for NetFlix is probably not a coincidence. Big companies need milestones way ahead of time because they are slow. They may need to move many parts to get there.

As for why no TV tuner for US, I think it's a bet between cable/DirectTV vs Internet, negotiation not withstanding. Google TV probably gets into the picture also. No idea what Sony's master plan is. However it is pretty clear from months ago that Marlin/Qriocity/DECE is part of that plan.

The "only" big mystery is Sony's online gaming plan and how it fits into the social gaming movement.

 

[deathindustrial]

This is wild speculation:
Strangely enough Sony promised PS3 owners disc-less based Netflix streaming by the end of October. Is this a coincidence or does Sony have something up their sleeve?

We already have the discless Netflix app in Canada and it is not Google TV based so this article is a non-starter I would think.

Cheers

 

[patsu]

There is no conflict.

It looks like a web-based app. Some UI elements like the progress bar and the selection box look similar/identical to Hulu Plus (Preview) too. It should be possible to integrate it into the Google TV search, browse, stream experience. Nothing stops Sony from doing it later. The PS3 has more than enough power and storage to do it.

FWIW, the Blu-ray NetFlix service in US may be a simple web application also (since BD-Live supports HTML). e.g., They added the search capability in July without updating the Blu-ray disc.

Based on Jeff's linked posts, I think the rumor is Sony could do it the OtherOS way. But I don't think we should jump yet. It's just pure speculation at this point.

The thing is Sony probably earn far more if people buy expensive Google TV, compared to buying a PS3. So I suspect a short term, profit minded business may push Google TV first. The rest will come later (if at all).


EDIT: Sony released a "non-game SDK" back in March:
http://www.afterdawn.com/news/article.cfm/2010/03/17/sony_to_launch_skinny_non_game_app_software

 

[jeff_rigby]

There is no conflict.


Based on Jeff's linked posts, I think the rumor is Sony could do it the OtherOS way. But I don't think we should jump yet. It's just pure speculation at this point.

The thing is Sony probably earn far more if people buy expensive Google TV, compared to buying a PS3. So I suspect a short term, profit minded business may push Google TV first. The rest will come later (if at all).


EDIT: Sony released a "non-game SDK" back in March:
http://www.afterdawn.com/news/article.cfm/2010/03/17/sony_to_launch_skinny_non_game_app_software

As I see it a browser replacement is probable, A Google TV selection under the XMB that launches an Android OS (like Linux other OS with out the hassle) is possible and least likely but still possible a complete redo of the XMB with Android providing an Android Tablet version (honeycomb or gingerbread or whatever it's called) desktop.

Google TV will be behind getting 38 million PS3 viewing WEB TV sites. Sony can take the opportunity to mention other Sony products that support Google TV (PS3) getting across that the name Sony means advanced hardware platforms with advanced features like ultraviolet. Point is Sony is supporting the Web in a big way. Or they can do as you suggest.

 

[jonabbey]

Android is not coming to PS3, that's a nonsensical notion.

Individual services and features might be implemented in GameOS, but Android will not be.

 

[patsu]

Android is not coming to PS3, that's a nonsensical notion.

Individual services and features might be implemented in GameOS, but Android will not be.

Sony's GoogleTV prices and sizes listed:
http://www.sonyinsider.com/2010/10/06/sizes-and-pricing-for-sony-google-tv-family-leaked/

Sony's GoogleTV settop box has an eject button. That may mean it's also a Blu-ray player.

If Sony releases a PS3 "GoogleTV", it'd cannibalize the settop box sales. If Sony does not patch PS3 to support GoogleTV, PS3 "can't do everything". Decision, decision. ^_^

EDIT: Logitech's GoogleTV settop box here:
http://gizmodo.com/5657345/logitech-revue-google-tv-box-full-details

 

[jeff_rigby]

EDIT: Sony released a "non-game SDK" back in March:
http://www.afterdawn.com/news/article.cfm/2010/03/17/sony_to_launch_skinny_non_game_app_software

"Sony has been briefing developers touring its GDC expo booth this week about a new lightweight tool that allows content creators to get non-game apps onto the PlayStation Network - with almost no software development needed.

Called Skinny, the tool is described by the format holder as "a simple yet effective means for content holders to put their intellectual property on the PlayStation platforms without software development".

In fact Sony is claiming that content creators can develop an app using the tool in as quick as a day.

The platform holder says the service is ideal for strategy guides, game maps and cheats, training manuals, episodic videos and the like, eBooks and eMagazines, comics and event content (such as show guides to download for stadiums or conferences).

Skinny consists of an authoring tool and a native client runtime for PS3 and PSP.

The editor is a web-based tool for PCs and workstations - content creators supply images, audio, video and text and use the design software and a simple flowchart organiser to decide how their pictures and sounds are presented, which is all managed with a simple XML file.

Skinny's authoring tool then lets you publish straight to a UMD or PlayStation Network image file.

The only catch is that the PS3 or PSP file still has to be submitted to Sony for approval, as with all game content.

A SCEA rep on the showfloor said it was "very quick and easy" to get up and running.

This is another indication that WEB based tools are being worked on inside Sony. The application shell can contain javascript engine and the XML runtime without it being in the PS3 firmware or it can rely on active parts of a Webkit that might now be in the PS3. Whatever language is used by the shell, it has to have support on both the PS3 and PSP.

From another post of mine in the PSN forum:

If you have been following my posts you would know that I believe a new PS3 WEBKIT browser is a work-in-process. That some Web Kit tools are in the PS3 now with firmware 3.5 and are active with more to follow.

Sony has been actively developing Web based /web language applications: http://www.develop-online.net/news/34161/GDC-Sonys-Skinny-strateg
y-backs-non-game-apps

Sony sees a large market in Web streaming of Music and Video and has sponsored the development of Cloud based services like Ultraviolet. Ultraviolet requires the support of a WebKit in that it needs access to javascript HTML5 and a compatible DRM normally provided as a plugin (Adobe Flash has a DRM called ACCESS).

Qriocity requires Ultraviolet. It will also require an application written with Ultraviolet hooks built in to access and play media. According to press releases; "Ultraviolet Apps will be cross platform compatible" on all Ultraviolet certified hardware platforms. I'm assuming that means the application is written in a cross platform language like Javascript.

For the PS3 to be ultraviolet certified and able to run the javascript application without a custom PS3 shell would require a considerable rewrite to the XMB. It would have to recognize, possibly with an extension name, that it was a javascript application, start the javascript engine and pass the program to the engine for execution. This would of course require HTML5 Javascript , Ultraviolet and a compatible DRM in the PS3 firmware.

Harder still are the javascript calls to HTML or XML for the UI. That would require support for a markup language outside a browser. And now we come to the Skinny Apps listed above as they too require the same XML language outside a browser. Could that be in the PS3 firmware NOW?

Note: Native language applications can be developed for hardware that can't support javascript and HTML5 support only needs the hooks for video and audio tags not the HTML markup language. This type of hardware can't have the ultraviolet label but it can be labeled Ultraviolet compatible.

I expect Sony will want the PS3 to have the Ultraviolet label. The Web tools required to do this would have priority and I think some of them were in PS3 firmware 3.5. All will be in the PS3 for the Ultraviolet label certification before the end of the year when Qriocity is supposed to be released.

I expect Sony will want to put the Ultraviolet label on blu-rays and Music CDs for this Christmas buying season and will want to announce the hardware that can Web stream play the media early on so I think the PS3 will soon have this ability.

Timing: IF everything were in place for Google TV then most likely everything would be in place for Quriocity and the announced date for it's release is "late 2010".

So NO, Google TV will probably not be released October 12th when Sony shows off their Google TV product family but it might be announced.

What is probable are new apps that make use of the Web tools I believe are in the PS3 now.

Netflix from the XMB
Bravia Internet video
New IPTV sites for EU
The Skinny Apps mentioned above could be supported with WEBKIT tools in the PS3 rather than having to include them in every Skinny application.

Note: The first obvious question for my statements above would be; How do you insure security if you are using javascript? Security routines will be in native PS3 language with "published" API hooks that javascript would use. So javascript will never have access to the unencrypted stream.

EDIT: Google TV and the web applications would use the same WEBKIT tools. Google TV could launch as an Android OS application similar to "Linux other OS" but from the XMB with out the hassle of other OS. Sony could have both a WEBGL browser and Google TV on the XMB. Google TV under Video and Chromium under Network on the XMB.

A Google TV launched from the XMB and run using Android as it's "other OS" would be a cleaner and possibly easier port. It would not require integration into the the PS3 OS but would require a completed WEBKIT. Since I believe that the V8 javascript engine was just ported to the PS3 and in 3.5 I don't think the Webkit is complete.

 

[patsu]

I thought Ultraviolet only needs the following ?

* Digital Rights Vault, to be operated by Neustar. You'll have a common user account (Probably same as Qriocity account)

* Common File Format, adopted by studios to contain movie videos

* Compatible DRM scheme. There are 5 selected, including Adobe's ACCESS, Microsoft, and Marlin DRM. HTML5 or Flash or Javascript are not required.

EDIT: PS Store is using Marlin DRM.

 

[patsu]

http://blogs.forbes.com/oliverchian...tion-take-their-friendship-to-the-next-level/

Last month, Sony released a new firmware update for its PlayStation 3 console, which included support for 3-D Blu-ray movie playback. But relatively unnoticed in the update was the deeper integration between Facebook and PS3, which marks an important step for Facebook-connected games spreading off the social network onto other platforms like videogame consoles.

In essence, the update gives game developers for the PS3 access to gamers’ Facebook profiles, if they have one, and their social graph (i.e. list of friends), photos and other profile information.

“We’ve pretty much opened up the entire Facebook API to our game developers,” says Eric Lempel, Sony Computer Entertainment’s vice president of network operations. “They’re able to pull any piece of information from Facebook, as well as push information out to Facebook.”

...

Sony should provide a complete Internet user environment in addition to simply providing loose APIs for developers. End users won't see any difference. At this moment, the Photo Gallery app supports FaceBook photo album browsing (which is very cool), and individual games can send messages to FaceBook. All these are buried too deeply in isolated fashion. They don't form any concepts.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I though Ultraviolet only needs the following ?

* Digital Rights Vault, to be operated by Neustar. You'll have a common user account (Probably same as Qriocity account)

* Common File Format, adopted by studios to contain movie videos

* Compatible DRM scheme. There are 5 selected, including Adobe's ACCESS, Microsoft, and Marlin DRM. HTML5 or Flash or Javascript are not required.

EDIT: PS Store is using Marlin DRM.

The group announced this week that it has decided upon key milestones for the project, which include an agreement on a common file format, vendor selection for the Digital Rights Locker (Neustar), and the approval of DRM solutions that will be DECE-compatible (Adobe Flash Access, CMLA-OMA V2, The Marlin DRM Open Standard, Microsoft PlayReady, and Widevine). "Compatibility with multiple DRMs will ensure that content can be played back via streaming or download on a wide variety of services and devices," wrote the group in its announcement.

I'm still looking for the reference to "Ultraviolet applications are compatible across platforms."

Edit: found it; http://www.uvvu.com/how_it_works.html "This logo will start appearing on movies for sale (designed for digital downloads and DVDs/Blu-ray Discs), in retailers’ stores and online offerings, and on devices or the apps that run on them."

"UltraViolet Media Player apps are available for PCs, game consoles, smartphones and other software-updateable platforms
UltraViolet-branded hardware devices appear in the market – connected Blu-ray Disc players, DVRs, Internet TVs, and other devices."

"UltraViolet is designed for UltraViolet-enabled movies and TV shows to be available in traditional physical stores, online movie stores, and on the growing number of web-based services that let consumers download content through game consoles, smart phones, Internet-connected TVs and Blu-ray players … as well the new devices being invented every day."