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Fafalada said:
1. several layers of alpha decals?
2. no evidence, just hypothesizing
Several - sure. but 32????

well, i doubt all 32 layers are just decals, i'd throw in at least a diffuse map in there : ) but seriously speaking, given the genre - i'd assume more than a few decal layers. or at last that's what i'd do for such a title

Anyway, Personally, if I had 32stages at disposal I would think using them for fancier lighting would have more effect then layering decals on top of each other. You could do like 2-3 selfshadowed lights with Dot3 diffuse AND specular within that budget.

depends on the game genre - this one is about gunfights - proper marks and scores on objects could be deemed of greater importance than fancier lighting. of course, that's hypothesizing on my part again, plus, from the seen footage, the game has quite decent lighting as it is, IMO (which surely consumes a few of those 32 layers).

technically speaking, LOD count has nothing to do with texture passes
Well no, in this case it's all about LOD, Guerilla talked a bit what they are doing awhile back.

Faf, you skimmed way too swiftly over my writing - LOD count has nothing to do with texture passes, not current LOD or LOD per se.
 
well, i doubt all 32 layers are just decals, i'd throw in at least a diffuse map in there : ) but seriously speaking, given the genre - i'd assume more than a few decal layers. or at last that's what i'd do for such a title
Actually speaking of decals, most people in this thread assumed "texture layer = multitexture stages", whereas I could argue that dynamic decals are often, if not usually, separate geometry overlays.
Now if I have a lot of say, blood splattering on the ground you'd indeed get tons of them :p, but somehow I doubt that's what Guerilla was talking about when they boasted their "object detail" level management.

depends on the game genre - this one is about gunfights - proper marks and scores on objects could be deemed of greater importance than fancier lighting.
Fair enough, but we are assuming that we only get that detail really upclose. "Shader LOD" is something that works - character being small enough I can easily take off specular, self shadows, reduce number of dynamic lights etc.
So long as transitions are smooth, you can get away with a lot. (in Jak1 it was actually occasionally possible to see fading of reflective/specular layers into distance on some very large structures, but transition being smooth it was barely noticeable without looking for it).

of course, that's hypothesizing on my part again, plus, from the seen footage, the game has quite decent lighting as it is, IMO (which surely consumes a few of those 32 layers).
Not counting full screen stuff for HDR effects they do, the lighting seems basic vertex diffuse, though admitedly media "quality" doesn't make it easy to see details.

Faf, you skimmed way too swiftly over my writing - LOD count has nothing to do with texture passes, not current LOD or LOD per se.
Yeah sorry about that, posting when I had serious sleep deprivation does that sometimes. :?
 
Fafalada said:
well, i doubt all 32 layers are just decals, i'd throw in at least a diffuse map in there : ) but seriously speaking, given the genre - i'd assume more than a few decal layers. or at last that's what i'd do for such a title
Actually speaking of decals, most people in this thread assumed "texture layer = multitexture stages", whereas I could argue that dynamic decals are often, if not usually, separate geometry overlays.

separate geometry overlays when on flat surfaces (walls, ground), but not on arbitrary complex surfaces (actors, vehicles, basically anything not flat).

Now if I have a lot of say, blood splattering on the ground you'd indeed get tons of them :p, but somehow I doubt that's what Guerilla was talking about when they boasted their "object detail" level management.

OTH, if one was to stack decals worth a dozen of texture layers over an object, he'd make sure those layers to be a subject to LODing, no?

depends on the game genre - this one is about gunfights - proper marks and scores on objects could be deemed of greater importance than fancier lighting.
Fair enough, but we are assuming that we only get that detail really upclose. "Shader LOD" is something that works - character being small enough I can easily take off specular, self shadows, reduce number of dynamic lights etc.

yep, i'd assume lighting would be part of their LODing scheme, too. but our original subject was what would they possible do with a LOD0 case of 32 layers - you said it was abund for lighting, whereas my (fairly damn hypotetical) point was it could include a fair number of decals just as well.

of course, that's hypothesizing on my part again, plus, from the seen footage, the game has quite decent lighting as it is, IMO (which surely consumes a few of those 32 layers).
Not counting full screen stuff for HDR effects they do, the lighting seems basic vertex diffuse, though admitedly media "quality" doesn't make it easy to see details.

well, i'm sure i saw some high specularities over some chrome parts, could have been env maps just as well, though.

Faf, you skimmed way too swiftly over my writing - LOD count has nothing to do with texture passes, not current LOD or LOD per se.
Yeah sorry about that, posting when I had serious sleep deprivation does that sometimes. :?

np, it's alright for somebody of your occupation : )
 
darkblu said:
separate geometry overlays when on flat surfaces (walls, ground), but not on arbitrary complex surfaces (actors, vehicles, basically anything not flat).
True, though dynamic objects usually don't get as much of that in the first place, but then it's about time things changed there.

OTH, if one was to stack decals worth a dozen of texture layers over an object, he'd make sure those layers to be a subject to LODing, no?
If I put them all on a moving object I'd seriously consider some kind of texture merging, but yeah LOD is the next best thing.

yep, i'd assume lighting would be part of their LODing scheme, too. but our original subject was what would they possible do with a LOD0 case of 32 layers - you said it was abund for lighting, whereas my (fairly damn hypotetical) point was it could include a fair number of decals just as well.
Well I think we can both agree that it'd be unreasonable to expect to use them all just for lighting OR just for decals. I brought up lighting simply because it's one of the things where the use would be more obvious from first glance. Lots of decals would be interesting during heavy action but wouldn't really affect basic visuals that much.

well, i'm sure i saw some high specularities over some chrome parts, could have been env maps just as well, though.
I don't doubt they are using it, I probably just didn't pay enough attention and with the current media being lowquality as it is...

Back to the actual game though, TTP you saw it running at least once, could you say if there was any detail mapping demonstrated on static/environment stuff?
I like detailed characters myself and all, but in a FPS it seems one of the first things people look at is closeups of wall and ground textures :rolleyes:
 
Fafalada said:
I like detailed characters myself and all, but in a FPS it seems one of the first things people look at is closeups of wall and ground textures :rolleyes:

Why is that ":rolleyes:"?
Quality of ground and large object textures, are very important for the overall visual impact of a scene.
They sort of set the standard for the rest. If the textureing budget is big enough to allow detailed textures on large surfaces, the rest of the games visuals should be of equal quality.
 
This 32 texture layer stuff sounds more like a semi-procedural texturing approach... Instead of making separate textures for gun #1, #2... character #2, wall #4 etc., they might be using many smaller dirt textures, scratch textures, metal textures, dirt alpha masks, etc. and mix them together to create various effects. Kinda like simple detail maps are used to boost up lowres ground textures, but on an even larger scale. For example you can have a detail in a grayscale texture which you use to multiply a low-res color texture, so that you can have the same thing in green, gray and brown versions. Then you add one or more dirt layer, using a tileable dirt texture but mask it with some fractal-ish or hand painted dirt map which you can also re-use for other models. Clever artists can hide repetitions and the possible variations are practically unlimited. Just take a look at the gun images, there's a lot of obvious re-use there.

I have to add that this is a very common practice in offline CGI texture painting, where you have to create very large res maps, 2k, 4k, even 8k for movie VFX models. The only way to do this is to keep adding various layers in Photoshop, all with some kind of 'dirt' masks; and use several levels of detail too, like 'small noise-ish detail', 'medium dirt', 'large stains of whatever'. The difference is that the texture artist has to blend all this together for the final image, which is then fed to Renderman for example - whereas in Killzone, they should be able to use the fill rate and computing power to do this 'flattening' in real time. It also has obvious opportunities for LOD, where you can progressively drop or replace successive layers of detail...
 
I've not seen any of KZ videos, but from the pictures I've got the impression that the levels are quite corridor like. Not much going around the levels, different rooms etc...
Anyone who has played the game or seen the videos care to prove me wrong.
 
rabidrabbit said:
I've not seen any of KZ videos, but from the pictures I've got the impression that the levels are quite corridor like. Not much going around the levels, different rooms etc...
Anyone who has played the game or seen the videos care to prove me wrong.


The video up there shows an open-ish area with lots of things going around... Not huge but "open"...

To be honest, i've had enough of war-based FPS's so i'll be hard pushed to buy this one if it doesn't do anything radically new or is extremely good at what little it is trying to do...
 
That latest video shows better detail and it looks good with respect to graphics and sound, however, there's barely any color. It's almost monochromatic. If they can get a solid 60 fps and better AI, then they'd have a solid package.
 
They should've turned the colour up before capturing :p looks very good on the dvd. I'm looking forward to it as well has Shellshock 67
 
PC-Engine said:
That latest video shows better detail and it looks good with respect to graphics and sound, however, there's barely any color. It's almost monochromatic.

I'm going out a limb here, but I'd guess that's where that whole artistic portrayal of actual warfare comes in. As opposed to more Hollywood-esque or Sci-Fi based FPS.
 
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