*Spin off* Bill of Materials and Cost/Price Reductions of Current Consoles

So if Sony reduces prices more percentage wise but X360 still costs significantly less in the end the X360 "loses"?! Phhhht, academic nonsense...

Who's talking about "losing" - did I even use the word? There's no point in responding to your above paragraphs because you're clearly set on discussing a completely different topic. It's further ironic that all of your arguments are actually the same ones I'd use, it's just your missing the mark on their meaning. Yes, volume beats niche; the BD drive is moving towards volume, whereas the DVD drive is at its asymptote.

There's no point to your saying that the 360 will always be cheaper to manufacture, and taking the tone as if I'm not understanding something. To the contrary, it shows you're not reading my posts, because I've stated the same several times. BUT. As I wrote above, I believe that as the years go on the PS3 manufacturing costs will get closer and closer to the 360's. The 360's main pricing advantage has less to do with its BOM than it does with the pricing cushion afforded by the game and accessory sales. I can certainly imagine that it won't be long before there's a $50 spread or less between the manufacturing costs of the PS3 and those of the 360 premium, and if Sony keeps a consistent $50 differential between the two at retail, I don't think they're in a bad position price wise.

My understanding was that the prices they listed were way off but percentage wise they were fairly accurate, is this wrong?

Yes, it's wrong. Look at the costs associated with assembly alone, or the costs they estimate for the case(!) of the system. The fact is those iSuppli numbers serve no purpose whatsoever.
 
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Who's talking about "losing" - did I even use the word?
Semantics, you're talking about the X360 losing a pricing advantage vs. PS3. Those were scare quotes BTW.
There's no point in responding to your above paragraphs because you're clearly set on discussing a completely different topic.
What led you to believe that? I could've sworn I was clear but OK...
It's further ironic that all of your arguments are actually the same ones I'd use, it's just your missing the mark on their meaning. Yes, volume beats niche; the BD drive is moving towards volume, whereas the DVD drive is at its asymptote.
See this is where I disagree, I don't think they'll be able to cut costs fast or deep enough to make the difference. I think Sony may be in a situation similar to what MS was in last generation, though I'd be suprised if they end up losing as much money per console for as long MS did with the Xbox, because MS will always be able to cut the price if they want to force Sony to lose money and still come out ahead. Its a perpetual price war that Sony can't win, particularly when they seem unable to properly capitalize their software to make up the difference, to hear you trivialize/make light of it is shocking to me.
There's no point to your saying that the 360 will always be cheaper to manufacture, and taking the tone as if I'm not understanding something. To the contrary, it shows you're not reading my posts, because I've stated the same several times.
Oh, I saw what you said I just can't believe you're saying it....
BUT. As I wrote above, I believe that as the years go on the PS3 manufacturing costs will get closer and closer to the 360's. The 360's main pricing advantage has less to do with its BOM than it does with the pricing cushion afforded by the game and accessory sales. I can certainly imagine that it won't be long before there's a $50 spread or less between the manufacturing costs of the PS3 and those of the 360 premium, and if Sony keeps a consistent $50 differential between the two at retail, I don't think they're in a bad position price wise.
To me if it was say $10 or less than OK, not so bad. But ~$50? Particularly in mid generation when there have been 1 or 2 price reductions down to $350-$250? Thats too much IMO... Doesn't that wipe out all the profits from their games and then some (they get ~$10 per game sold right? and have an attach rate of something like 3-4 games per console right?)? And what happens when these consoles hit the late period in this generation with more mainstream pricing @ $200-$150? MS could get away with losing billions because of their OS division, but Sony would get hurt alot more if they tried that game, especially when they went into this generation expecting to clean up.
Yes, it's wrong. Look at the costs associated with assembly alone, or the costs they estimate for the case(!) of the system. The fact is those iSuppli numbers serve no purpose whatsoever.
OK, thanks.
 
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PS3 cost is $400??

http://www.businessweek.com/globalb...?chan=top+news_top+news+index_global+business

Nikko Citigroup's Kota Ezawa estimates the games division will lose $1.4 billion this fiscal year, following last year's $2.1 billion loss. And while he doesn't expect the business to be prosperous until late 2009, Ezawa applauds Sony's efforts to shrink the PS3's chips and tweak its design. Already such changes have cut the cost per machine to around $400 now, from above $800 just before it went on sale in November, 2006, he says. (The PS3 with an 80-gigabyte hard-disk drive retails in the U.S.
 
Semantics, you're talking about the X360 losing a pricing advantage vs. PS3. Those were scare quotes BTW.

Were did I say 360 would lose a price advantage?

Oh, I saw what you said I just can't believe you're saying it....

I don't quite understand you here; why is it hard to believe?

To me if it was say $10 or less than OK, not so bad. But ~$50? Particularly in mid generation when there have been 1 or 2 price reductions down to $350-$250? Thats too much IMO... Doesn't that wipe out all the profits from their games and then some (they get ~$10 per game sold right? and have an attach rate of something like 3-4 games per console right?)?

Mesyn, you're confused. I'm talking about a BOM differential with MS; what does price cutting have to do with that figure? Sony will price it where they do - that's not what my $50 spread was referring to. (For the record I think that spread is higher than $50 at the present time though)

And what happens when these consoles hit the late period in this generation with more mainstream pricing @ $200-$150?

Again, I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. But what I am saying, is that if the PS3 is perpetually priced $50 more than the premium 360, it will probably at no time be losing significantly more in its manufacturing. I think a PS3 priced $50 above the mainstream 360 model is a reasonable place for the console to sit from a value standpoint in the eyes of the consumer, though obviously their respective software offerings are what will create the demand for either console in the first place.

.....

EDIT: The above came out wrong, because it assumes that MS maintains the same level of loss on the unit as they presently endure. But as I said, I believe that the cushion from software and accessory sales would be what allows them to get more aggressive in pricing, thus perhaps expanding the level of loss endured per unit and potentially keeping Sony from being able to match the move. The emphasis is on the greater range of supports MS can draw on, however, to put a floor beneath its moves, rather than the manufacturing costs, where I feel that the gap will continue to narrow.

MS could get away with losing billions because of their OS division, but Sony would get hurt alot more if they tried that game, especially when they went into this generation expecting to clean up.

MS cannot afford to lose further billions on the XBox project; it is an internal mandate at this point. You can be assured that every effort on their part is being made to see the years going forward be profitable. That's not mutually exclusive with price drops by any means, or saying that they won't drop the price by more than Sony, but it is a present statement of fact that the days of being able to 'afford' multi-billion losses in gaming is over for the time being at least at MS - everything has been geared towards ensuring the division turns profitable in the current fiscal year.
 
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Cool new information in this thread:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1115296#post1115296

According to the report linked in that thread "The optical assembly contains some very strange and novel optics, unlike anything ever seen in an optical pickup before"

PS3 Drive Optics
kes400a-ts.jpg

kes400a-bs.jpg



HD-DVD Player Optics
hddvd1-ts.jpg

hddvd1-bs.jpg



PS2 Slim Optics
pvr802w2.jpg
 
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Yeah I saw that thread; no doubt timely! :)

I wonder if the KES-400A is the drive being used in the newer 40GB units though, and how the newer one would compare. I remember some website giving the drive model when the 40GB was released, but I can't remember which... or if I'm just imagining it. But I do think though that they have moved to a different drive model, or at least a different revision. We know this at the minimum because the SACD removal was purportedly an aspect of the simplification.
 
Yeah I saw that thread; no doubt timely! :)

I wonder if the KES-400A is the drive being used in the newer 40GB units though, and how the newer one would compare. I remember some website giving the drive model when the 40GB was released, but I can't remember which... or if I'm just imagining it. But I do think though that they have moved to a different drive model, or at least a different revision. We know this at the minimum because the SACD removal was purportedly an aspect of the simplification.

40$
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-ORIGINAL-SO...yZ147177QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
 
Sony probably doesn´t buy their components on e-bay.

But still nice to know. ;)

The design looks like heavy duty stuff.

You sure ? :)

Considering that the this part is supposed to be the expensive part in the Blu-Ray drive i was surprised by the relatively low price for a spare part this "complex".
 
Oh, I saw what you said I just can't believe you're saying it....

To me if it was say $10 or less than OK, not so bad. But ~$50? Particularly in mid generation when there have been 1 or 2 price reductions down to $350-$250?
[modhat]I'm going to step in with my moderator boots here and make sure this thread doesn't stray off into yet-another-price-and-sales-thread. The topic at hand is how much the machines costs to make and how the cost of manufacturing and bill of materials can/will be reduced over time. Final store price and sales as a result is off topic. That's why the thread was spun off - to keep it separate![/modhat]
 
You sure ? :)

Considering that the this part is supposed to be the expensive part in the Blu-Ray drive i was surprised by the relatively low price for a spare part this "complex".

Yeah, I was actually surprised too.

It says "professional game part seller", that should imply that it has gone through the normal distribution channels from Sony and there should be some pretty good margin in that price compared to the actual cost of the component at manufacturing.
 
The price that ebay seller is selling it for seems to be completly arbitrary. Here is another one the seller is selling. LINK This one he is selling for 29.99GBP or 58.69USD. The other one he was selling for 39.99 USD. It's like he doesnt know exactly what it is worth. Just trying to guess what people will pay for it.

Who knows where he got it from. Considering that they are selling grey market stuff like Modchipped Wii and 360 disk drive I doubt they officially got the components from Sony.
 
The price that ebay seller is selling it for seems to be completly arbitrary. Here is another one the seller is selling. LINK This one he is selling for 29.99GBP or 58.69USD. The other one he was selling for 39.99 USD. It's like he doesnt know exactly what it is worth. Just trying to guess what people will pay for it.

Who knows where he got it from. Considering that they are selling grey market stuff like Modchipped Wii and 360 disk drive I doubt they officially got the components from Sony.

Yeah, it could just as well be 20$ or 10$ who knows.
 
If the BOM on a PS3 is anywhere $400.00 then look for Sony gaming division to turn a profit during calender q4 2007 or Sony's fiscal Q3 2007.

The BOM would have to be much lower than that for a retail price of $400 to equal a profit.
 
The BOM would have to be much lower than that for a retail price of $400 to equal a profit.

Why?

How much does the BOM need to be under retail price before the PS3 stops eating into all the profits generated by PS2/PSP. I am talking gaming division.

A PS3 with a $400.00 USD or slightly higher BOM should result in a big quarter for the Sony. If I am not mistaken a $400.00 USD BOM would mean profit on hardware for PS3es sold in the PAL markets.
 
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Why?

How much does the BOM need to be under retail price before the PS3 stops eating into all the profits generated by PS2/PSP. I am talking gaming division.

A PS3 with a $400.00 USD or slightly higher BOM should result in a big quarter for the Sony. If I am not mistaken a $400.00 USD BOM would mean profit on hardware for PS3es sold in the PAL markets.

BOM is the cost to make it, not the cost to get it through retail. Distribution cost plus the retailer share are still a significant bite out of that. A $400 BOM still probably means they are losing upwards of $100 on each console.
 
BOM is the cost to make it, not the cost to get it through retail. Distribution cost plus the retailer share are still a significant bite out of that. A $400 BOM still probably means they are losing upwards of $100 on each console.

Where are you getting your numbers from as that $100.00 tag seems highly exaggerated.

Isn't the retailer's share on consoles practically zero (somewhere south of 5-10 dollars if that).

I seriously doubt it cost 1 billion dollars for Sony just to distribute 10 million PS3es.
 
Where are you getting your numbers from as that $100.00 tag seems highly exaggerated.

Isn't the retailer's share on consoles practically zero (somewhere south of 5-10 dollars if that).

I seriously doubt it cost 1 billion dollars for Sony just to distribute 10 million PS3es.

I'd be shocked if retailers weren't getting at least 10% of retail price, and thats still well below what retail normally takes. Retailers have expenses too you know.
 
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