You arent being clear. The mere implementation of these features on DS do wonders, whereas the mere implementation of the same features on the NGP dont make them stand out much?
Sony's NeoGeo Pocket's (PSP2/Vita) business/non technical ramifications talk
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iPhone gaming is popular because the games are dirt cheap, easy to play and mindlessly addictive (e.g., Angry Bird). NGP games are supposed to be of "higher caliber" and more expensive. People will expect more from them. I am unsure if mixing controls is sufficient to attract core gamers.
Yes, the oohs and aahs will help to differentiate 3DS… until cellphone gaming goes auto-stereoscopic too. I am not so sure about Nintendo's AR gaming and social gaming at this point. Need to see more.
So does that mean that the 3DS games will also have the same issues as the NGP since it is almost identical to its predecessor?
So is the problem "PS3 like"/console experiences? Or that there is competition from the iOS games? They arent the same thing
ShadowRunner
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The dual analogue sticks differentiate this mobile device imo. Its totally unique in the handheld market. In terms of games control dual analogue, along with the rear touch pad for good measure, are the only innovations we have had in the portable market for years!
Its a smart move for them to go for the core gamer imo. Trying compete with phones directly with a gaming portable is poinless because it isnt a phone and thus cannot replace one no matter how great it is! Sony or nintendo cant hope to be a replacement but at best be a second thing people own that complements thier phones. There is no point in going casual, thats already taken care of by their phones. Looking at nintendos game lineup and now NGPs the two companies obviously realise this.
Its a smart move for them to go for the core gamer imo. Trying compete with phones directly with a gaming portable is poinless because it isnt a phone and thus cannot replace one no matter how great it is! Sony or nintendo cant hope to be a replacement but at best be a second thing people own that complements thier phones. There is no point in going casual, thats already taken care of by their phones. Looking at nintendos game lineup and now NGPs the two companies obviously realise this.
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NGP supports ps suite which should cater exactly that. Besides ps suite will have massive install base thanks to combined android+ngp sales which should deliver ecosystem capable of supporting both angry casuals and hardcorers... And those quirky titles too as the power is in tens if not in hundred millions in few years.
It wouldn't be very unexpected to see ps suite come as an install to existing android phones...
So does that mean that the 3DS games will also have the same issues as the NGP since it is almost identical to its predecessor?
3DS is very different from DS. NGP is very different from PSP. But 3DS's auto-stereoscopic display is unique. NGP is more a consolidation of Sony's experience in console gaming.
So is the problem "PS3 like"/console experiences? Or that there is competition from the iOS games? They arent the same thing
Both.
Yes, that's the idea. Will have to see how well they execute.
Excellent point, this is where NGP and 3DS will have difficulties in selling games eg do I buy this $40 watered down console game for my dedicated gaming handheld or do I buy the $60 high fidelity version for my home console? If the handheld game only costs $1 or $2 people wouldn't have to choose they could buy both.
You mean stereoscopic 3D makes a whole world of difference? How does it change the gameplay when its a mere implementation of 3D? MGS3 in 3D and MGS3 in 2D arent the same game? Except from stereoscopic 3D, 3DS is a more powerful DS. Is that really a problem though?
The PS3-a console- comes with 3D games too. So?
iOS competition doesnt support the first. So please explain the first. You still havent explained what defines PS3-like, console experience. Because iOS competition cant turn something that was originaly portable suitable experiences into console experiences considering that both portable worlds offer similar interfaces. iOS games are basically similar to the DS anyways.
It has nothing to do with consol- like experiences. Its that they have more competition now in the portable scene
Prophecy2k
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It's not really that excellent a point because both of you fail to see that there's a very real, quick and easy remedy to this kind of dilemma. Simply, "don't offer games on 3DS or NGP that can be seen as watered down console games"!
Again, that's not a HW issue, nor even a platform issue, nor even a platform holder's issue (however is a 1st party pub issue). It's simply a software issue and thus down to developers to make games on NGP and 3DS that are unique appealing and simply can't be found anywhere else.
Sony has given developers all the tools they need to do just this, and even games based on a console series IP can be defferentiated sufficiently to be a completely different experience on NGP. As Patsu says 3DS has autosterioscopic 3D which makes games on it somewhat unique (although i'd argue less so than the potential allowed with NGP, but that's my opinion). Physical controls alone differentiate these two portables from iOS games, as there are just some portable games i don't want to play on a touchcreen only device.
To Patsu, you say games on NGP are meant to be "high calibre" and more expensive, yet how is that any different from the 3GS? I for one am in the camp where i look at a game liek Steel Diver announced for the 3DS and think that's not worth $40, yet at the same time i'd more than happily shell out $40 for a Pokemon 3DS games or Patapon NGP.
To claim NGP is not unique or will only play watered down console ports (which is an impressive feat of clairvoyancy) is disingenuous. Either that it's borne out of very low expectatins for the device. Whether you have any confidence in Sony or not as a platform holder is irrelivant, as the NGP undeniably allows developers far more flexibility in crafting games on it than any other games platform in history... ever.
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3D has a baring on game play due to the improved perspective and like it or not its unique because its the first system to be fully focused on 3D with mountains of 3D content (the fact you don't need glasses just adds to that). 3DS also does have more control options then DS.
None of PSP2's features are really unique, but it does have the potential for unique games because of the sheer number of control options (though it does make me ask the question, how many hands/fingers does Sony think we have?).. We'll have to wait and see whether developers will use all these control options to make truly unique experiences.
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but you will also be able to play Angry Birds on NGP
Prophecy2k
Veteran
I've heard this line before, and i've also heard lots of testamonails from folks who have had time with the device and found the 3D effect a bit jarring and preferred to play with it off. Given the devices narrow FOV the 3D may even end up being something that most people simply turn off. Again i also beg to differ on how having a slightly different perspective when games changes the gameplay in any meaningful way. It's purely a graphical feature. Yes games can be designed around it, but that's far more to do with making sure that things fly out the screen at you rather than actually changing the physical gameplay mechanics in any way. Hence it's a graphical feature rather than anything that will meaningfully affect gameplay.
List any portable hanheld console released previously with:
- dual analogues
- rear touchscreen
- 3G data connection
- GPS positioning
... no?... of course you can't because there haven't been any. Hence NGP indeed has features that are unique. You can't really argue the fact. It's an objective fact.
Whether said unique HW features appeal to you is a different story, but the device is unique... end of really.
Prophecy2k
Veteran
Yeah at HOME lol.
I'd also even add that Sony has been smart by adding an entirely separate market segment on the device to cater to those types of games, namely PS Suite.
...but of course people in here continually like to forget all that stuff
As I said the NGP is not going to be carried around so there's no point in playing those types of games sitting on a couch at home with a NGP in your hands.
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Prophecy2k answered part of your question:
3DS has features that makes it obvious for users to notice the difference right away. For example, without even looking at the actual games, they can tell HDTVs has stereoscopic 3D that requires 3D glasses, 3DS games don't need glasses. Whether 3D display changes gameplay, we will have to look at individual game titles to find out.
For NGP-savvy or exclusive games, the differences are less obvious. That's why I mention Sony and developers will have to think/work harder to achieve that perception difference.
Nesh said:
Not sure what you meant by "the first". I think NGP will need to differentiate from both casual portable gaming as well as core home console gaming. With Playstation Suite, the line between cellphone gaming and NGP gaming may blur.
Yes, without a distinct HW differentiator, the devs will have to think/work harder to come up with unique experience via pure software and content. The dual sticks is rather unique on portable devices, but not so compared to home consoles. Some more software/content special sauce is needed.
Even with a auto-stereoscopic display, 3DS also needs to be careful how much they charge for their games:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-02-04-nintendo-low-app-prices-threaten-industry
I don't think I said that. I only commented that NGP doesn't have a hardware feature to differentiate it universally. Hence, Sony and developers will have to work/think harder to differentiate NGP titles via pure software, content or services.
EDIT:
Yes, you can also play Angry Bird on other platforms. You don't need NGP for it.
There isn't one product or feature on the planet that doesn't have its detractors (do you want to bet their won't be people with negative testimonials about various PSP2 features?). But how many 3DS testimonials have we seen from people who love the screen?.. Also 3D may be something most people turn off?, it may not as well, that's not much of an argument.
You don't need to change the game mechanics for 3D to be more then just a graphical feature. Do you honestly think things flying out of the screen is the most important thing about 3D?
3D adds depth perception to games, that's the most important aspect, I can think of plenty of genres where that can add to the enjoyment/gameplay.Read again, I said none of its features are truly unique (which of them are unique features on their own?) but that the number of features all together could lead to unique gameplay if developers use them in imaginative ways.
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people say they don't want the console games on a handheld, then when you point out that NGP will also have the pick up & play games that people say should be on handhelds it doesn't matter because you can play them on other platforms? lol
I think people are just stuck in their ways & they just labeled the PSP as a handheld with console games & even though sony has been releasing minis games for the PSP for a while now people still don't think the PSP has these type of games.
It's not a funny proposition.
It's understandable some people don't want a traditional console gaming on a handheld.
It's also possible to find cheap, casual games on other mobile platforms today.
NGP and 3DS will have to find their own ways to address both issues. 3DS attempts to pioneer auto-stereoscopic 3D hardware wise. NGP attempts to draw people on powerful hardware and a variety of control options.
The concern that the NGP unique features may not be as apparent or as easily communicated to the consumer from the package is something I have also expressed in these very forums and the consumer may need to have first hand experience with the product to notice. This is mostly marketing related but that is irrelevant to what it can actually offer.
3DS is still a DS slapped with 3D. So far there is no title announced that makes use of the 3D screen to differentiate gameplay and they didnt communicate/explain during any of its announcements how 3D will change gameplay experience.
It is always about the game design regardless of platform and both the NGP and the 3DS have the right foundations for that and they arent much different in that respect.
By the first I was referring to the argument that the NGP doesnt have much to differentiate itself from PS3/console like experiences and traditional gaming, but you havent exactly supported this with arguements. You victimize it for that but the hardware design is not a problem. It has the right hardware,
Its only up to the developers from there on to design the games that will take advantage of it appropriately. You cant argue with the fact that this is game design dependent. Why dont you just wait and see what developers will do instead?
Regarding your argument that the NGP should differentiate from the core and casuals, I am not sure it makes sense. Its impossible to differentiate from both when everyone targets those two segments and these are the two segments that consist 100% of the market. There is no other else left anyways. They dont have to differentiate from those two. These will always be the targeted segments. The difference is that they will have to differentiate for those segments by enriching the experience offered to them. The 3DS and the NGP are in the same situation (if we ignore past success carried to the present and price differences) and both will face the same challenges from the iOS (and Android) game competition which is everyday devices that happen to play games and at cheap prices. Hardware adoption for the latter is seamless and is the biggest advantage that these devices have compared to gaming dedicated devices. Who doesnt need a phone these days?
Please try not to multi-quote my posts when you reply
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