Sony PS6, Microsoft neXt Series - 10th gen console speculation [2020]

They already made a portable with the portal. I think they'll build on that as a complement to the PS6. Your PS6 can be your dedicated game server and you can play from anywhere in the world.
At far lower quality than playing locally or streaming from servers. Sales of portal look to be lower than Steam Deck, and far, far below PSP and Vita, so certainly the public doesn't see it as the equivalent of a dedicated handheld.
Xbox seems to be flirting with becoming a third party publisher.
There's a whole thread on that! This thread is discussing their next hardware, which is still going to launch next gen.
 
Some people are caught in a negative loop. If MS are releasing next gen 1st party hardware, then by definition they aren't a 3rd party. I hope people understand that you can't be a 1st party and a 3rd party at the same time. MS is a multiplatform 1st party, with the best console exclusive in gaming for Xbox - GamePass.

My friends and I just want a new GamePass box. We don't care what Sony does. There's only 30 million of us now, but apparently that's enough for MS to make us a new box. :)
 
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Games that are 10+ years old are actually only of interest to 1-2% of potential users. MS is targeting the 100+ million gamers with their next gaming model who are mostly interested in new games.

I've been an Xbox fan since the beginning, collecting games with the idea that I'd play them all someday. Well, since then I've realized that I'm only interested in current games and I only play new ones.

Furthermore, if I still want to play an old game, there are emulators that are constantly improving.

With the current global reputation of the brand, Microsoft don't have 100+ million gamers to sell to with just Xbox gaming devices, be they traditional consoles or PC hybrids. The brand appeal simply isn't there and hasn't been since the 360 era. Also with all their games being Day 1 on PC gaming platforms like Steam, that further reduces the realistic addressable base of gamers a new Xbox can sell to, specifically if it's more of a traditional console.

BC is also important because we're talking about libraries people have spent money on. Whether they plan on ever playing those games again or not, they expect that library to come with them now, as a customer in the digital era. Losing access to that library because maybe only 2% will regularly go back to play those old titles, is a quick way to erode consumer faith in the brand as a whole. It would just become a needlessly negative talking point against MS and Xbox when they're in a position, where they don't need any more of such if they can help it.

As for emulators...well, those are a legal grey area. Not necessarily for the emulators themselves (although, say, the Switch & PS4 emulators ARE illegal because patents for those systems have not ran out (hasn't been 20 years) and at least the Switch is still readily commercially available), but because a lot of people are using them to play games they don't legally own, or are accessed illegally. Unfortunately that's a big component of the emulation scene on PC, but I say "unfortunate" only outside the content of super-rare or abandonware titles.

Like, if someone's using an emulator to play Psychic Force or even Panzer Dragoon Saga, with ISOs/ROMs from online, I can understand that. Those games either never got home ports, never got GOOD home ports, or are so rare and difficult to obtain legally it'll cost you hundreds of dollars if not thousands just to get your hands on them. Realistically, most people don't have the lifestyle to pay $1,000+ dollars for a decent copy of a single game, and if the publisher doesn't have the game on any modern systems or storefronts, emulation's your only real option.

But there are a good number of people who are using emulators to play illegal copies of current releases, too. Heck one of the emulators for Switch had a site distributing ISOs of BOTW and TOTK. Those are current games; I can't support that type of emulation because it's not like you're paying hundreds of thousands to get one of 500 copies of those games. They're readily available on the market, today, for anyone to buy. Same goes for even older entries in current IP where you know the publisher keeps current with that series, unless the old entries are extremely rare and not readily available anywhere else to purchase.

So that's a few years out. Development would already have been ongoing in the preliminary stage. I assume Sony and AMD are deeply engaged with each other already, and if it follows a similar path as the PS5 I suppose the PS6 would sport a Zen ~6-7 core depending on development and release date, and a custom RDNA 5 based core? Whatever that will look like. Storage might get a tad quicker too I suppose. Feels like it could well be a PS5 2.0. Not terribly exotic until you get into finer details.

In either case I'm going to assume that studios will target a range of resolutions from 1080p to1440p or thereabouts, and rely on up-scaling to get the rest of the way to 4K in most - if not all - cases.

Microsoft seems like the wild card, considering talk of both handhelds and speculation of standard-based boxes in lieu of their own. Certainly going to be interesting to see what happens there. Could Sony follow suit and make their own portable? If they want to be wild I wouldn't mind seeing them make their own version of the Meta Quest. Go all in on portable VR with a cable to use the PS6 for a massive performance boost?

Keep in mind that RDNA isn't going to really be a thing anymore going forward. AMD are unifying RDNA and CDNA into UDNA, so PS6's GPU will be based around that unified UDNA.

Which, IMO, does make the talk about a separate NPU a bit outdated, as CDNA would have fulfilled that. Maybe Microsoft go with a separate NPU depending on if the GPU switches to another vendor (i.e Intel?), but it seems very likely SIE will not go with a separate NPU for PS6. They prefer trying to integrate various components in their designs, historically speaking. Whereas Microsoft can weave a bit one way or another (i.e the eSRAM in XBO & DDR3 memory), tho maybe not to the degree of older console makers i.e SEGA during the 16-bit & 32-bit eras.

I do hope with PS6, SIE expand more on PNM ideas, with focus on smart processing near the memory in order to cut down on bus transaction. Which will mean they can reign in the total memory bandwidth needed, even capacity to some extent. Also hoping the next gen implements technologies that help really speed up game development and bring costs down. For example, I don't know how feasible it is to develop an AI-driven ASIC, drivers etc. that can auto-generate more or less detailed geometry & texture LODs based on a singular level provided to train on by devs during development (coming down to systems & tools the platform holder would develop to facilitate it).

Figure it would need to do things like understanding various file formats and have on-the-fly analytical capabilities, parse metadata related to the asset models & textures, get feedback on the framebuffer, player viewport, relative distance of objects in relation to player (and visibility i.e are the objects obscured, tho I think parts of the graphics pipeline for geometry culling calculation would pick up on that ahead of time) etc. Can something like that be set in time for a 2028 system? Don't really know.

Maybe some built-in hardware for smart AI graphics filters could enhance the experience too, and help out speeding up aspects of development the way raytracing does (or is meant to, in theory).

They already made a portable with the portal. I think they'll build on that as a complement to the PS6. Your PS6 can be your dedicated game server and you can play from anywhere in the world. For the hw architecture its still too early to tell but it will have the latest CPU and GPU architectures of the year it releases in.

Xbox seems to be flirting with becoming a third party publisher. This news just came out today:


So you can imagine the next gen Xbox may not be a closed system

SIE definitely need a portable option for next gen, but I think it needs to be more than just another PS Portal. They really need something that can provide some level of native gaming, that doesn't require the user needing a PS6 home console to stream to it, and doesn't completely rely on the cloud.

So, the rumors of a next-gen PS handheld being somewhere around PS4 Pro - base PS5 in general native ability, but supporting a feature set with PS6 (and leveraging things like more advanced PSSR to handle resolution downscaling), hopefully take shape. I don't see why SIE can't have such a portable at the higher-end of the SKU market (I think such a portable would probably cost at least $449) while having a cloud streaming-only lower-cost option as well.

Especially for markets like Japan where, let's face it, they really do need a portable option to help climb back some market share specifically for B2P titles. The key target for a native portable, IMO, should be the ability to play PS6 titles natively, albeit downscaled in resolution and potentially framerate. Making it as easy as possible for devs to implement that without having them risk design scope to target what the PS6 can truly do (although for games that are cross-gen, that worry becomes heavily mitigated).
 
Boy hahaha.... He probably
knows more about the X360 than you will ever know.
Besides this being spurious, it still doesnt invalidate my initial point. How do you know much about such a system yet you're not aware about how popular and far reaching it was??
There's a whole thread on that! This thread is discussing their next hardware, which is still going to launch next gen.
Gotcha wrt to sticking to the topic at hand.

At far lower quality than playing locally or streaming from servers. Sales of portal look to be lower than Steam Deck, and far, far below PSP and Vita, so certainly the public doesn't see it as the equivalent of a dedicated handheld.
I think Sony likes to play it safe and progressively innovate. They've stated they're satisfied with performance and reception of the Portal. Consumers are buying them up and they have exceeded expectations set internally at Sony.

There are compelling reasons to make a device similar to the PSP or Steam Deck or Switch as a complement to the PS6. I agree with you on that but I think the hardware advancements for that would require it be released midgen of the PS6. That way it could have performance closer to a base PS5 in a portable device at an affordable price but with much better hw acceleration for upscaling. Otherwise releasing a new version of the Playstation portal to complement the PS6 seems much more likely in the near term. I can see this happening early on after the release of the PS6. Maybe called the Playstation portal pro with a huge battery, better connectivity with 5G & LTE retailing for $100 more than the normal portal. I dont think the two(PSP Switch type device or streaming type) are mutually exclusive when it comes to the PS6. They can both exist.
 
SIE definitely need a portable option for next gen, but I think it needs to be more than just another PS Portal. They really need something that can provide some level of native gaming, that doesn't require the user needing a PS6 home console to stream to it, and doesn't completely rely on the cloud.

So, the rumors of a next-gen PS handheld being somewhere around PS4 Pro - base PS5 in general native ability, but supporting a feature set with PS6 (and leveraging things like more advanced PSSR to handle resolution downscaling), hopefully take shape. I don't see why SIE can't have such a portable at the higher-end of the SKU market (I think such a portable would probably cost at least $449) while having a cloud streaming-only lower-cost option as well.

Especially for markets like Japan where, let's face it, they really do need a portable option to help climb back some market share specifically for B2P titles. The key target for a native portable, IMO, should be the ability to play PS6 titles natively, albeit downscaled in resolution and potentially framerate. Making it as easy as possible for devs to implement that without having them risk design scope to target what the PS6 can truly do (although for games that are cross-gen, that worry becomes heavily mitigated).
I agree with this.
 
I do hope with PS6, SIE expand more on PNM ideas, with focus on smart processing near the memory in order to cut down on bus transaction. Which will mean they can reign in the total memory bandwidth needed, even capacity to some extent.
Processing near memory? That would be quite novel. I don't know what it could bring to the table really, I'm not familiar enough. You have any examples?

Also hoping the next gen implements technologies that help really speed up game development and bring costs down. For example, I don't know how feasible it is to develop an AI-driven ASIC, drivers etc. that can auto-generate more or less detailed geometry & texture LODs based on a singular level provided to train on by devs during development (coming down to systems & tools the platform holder would develop to facilitate it).
To Sony's credit they do seem very attuned to developer needs since the PS4. I wouldn't know about Microsoft, so they might be as well for all I know. Hopefully they'll both broaden their tool-sets even further. This isn't hardware related, but it would be cool if Sony and MS (and Nintendo) set up a publishing and developer support arm specifically geared towards indie or "low end" developers. Games are incredibly complex, and getting far to expensive to make.

I recall there being quite the discussion about the fall of the PS Vita being related to that reason. As compared to Nintendo DS/3DS, the Vita demanded quite a few more development dollars to look and feel competitive on the platform. Shrinking its game library and raising prices. Now that's a vague memory of mine at this point, but it does at least feel logical. I think we're all for powerful hardware and splendid looking games, but it does come at a cost.
 
Imagine the possibilities. Mass stuttering and poor optimization no longer limited to the PC!!

But think of the other possibilities.

The one thing holding Direct Storage back from realising its full potential was the hardware decompression block in Series consoles. By moving that workload onto the GPU DS can realise its full potential.

To cause additional stutters.

And please, god, make sure the game and the OS can hit the pagefile. Those are some of my favourite stutters and pauses. 🙏
 
With the current global reputation of the brand, Microsoft don't have 100+ million gamers to sell to with just Xbox gaming devices, be they traditional consoles or PC hybrids.
"MS is targeting the 100+ million gamers with their next gaming model"

Gaming model =/= only own devices
 
Why does it matter what API are games using? Win32 is perfectly fine, its subset is already supported on consoles and ERA migration library (EMiLi) exists. A lot of win32 on Windows has seen oxidation so this + smaller attack surface is a no-brainer.
 
Processing near memory? That would be quite novel. I don't know what it could bring to the table really, I'm not familiar enough. You have any examples?

In gaming? The only one I can think of, ironically, is PS5's SSD I/O subsystem. With that you have I'd say a pseudo-implementation, as the point of that whole subsystem is to prevent needing to move unprocessed data from storage to RAM to then have the CPU spend cycles processing it. It also cuts down on the amount of power consumption needed in an operation of getting data from storage to memory; the less you need to move data across the main memory bus, the more you save on overall power usage.

Just comparatively speaking, GDDR6 uses a good bit more power than, say, DDR4, and the PS5 has (IIRC) 1 GB of DDR4 as a cache buffer of sorts for data going to/from the SSD. I guess generally speaking, PC SSDs with onboard DRAM cache buffers would also count as an example of PNM?

But, the type I'd like to see with stuff like PS6 is more along the lines of the SSD I/O subsystem for PS5, just for other parts of the system. PIM (Processing In Memory) would be even better, but the only PIM available is DDR-PIM and HBM-PIM; the former wouldn't likely give the needed bandwidth in cases where you do need to use the full memory bus, and the latter is probably going to be way too expensive.

I'm kinda curious if a small HBM-PIM cache (say, 1 GB) would give any functional advantage in a next-gen system likely using GDDR7, though. I know in terms of bandwidth it'd probably smoke what GDDR7 could offer, and at lower power consumption, plus possibly being integrated directly on the package (so, much shorter traces & better latency). Would it be worth the cost vs. just using all GDDR7 tho, I don't know.

To Sony's credit they do seem very attuned to developer needs since the PS4. I wouldn't know about Microsoft, so they might be as well for all I know. Hopefully they'll both broaden their tool-sets even further. This isn't hardware related, but it would be cool if Sony and MS (and Nintendo) set up a publishing and developer support arm specifically geared towards indie or "low end" developers. Games are incredibly complex, and getting far to expensive to make.

I recall there being quite the discussion about the fall of the PS Vita being related to that reason. As compared to Nintendo DS/3DS, the Vita demanded quite a few more development dollars to look and feel competitive on the platform. Shrinking its game library and raising prices. Now that's a vague memory of mine at this point, but it does at least feel logical. I think we're all for powerful hardware and splendid looking games, but it does come at a cost.

Technically speaking, at least MS & SIE already have initiatives like that. ID@Xbox for MS, and the Hero Project for SIE. I don't know if Nintendo has quite something similar, but maybe they do?

As for the Vita, it had a ton of problems. It, IMO, got overshadowed by the last couple years of PS3 and the big releases that system had, and then got overshadowed big time by the PS4. Also while Nintendo took some big measures to improve initially slow 3DS sales, I don't think SIE ever did the same for Vita. They just rode it out for whatever they could.

Then the thing with the storage...that really hurt it :/

"MS is targeting the 100+ million gamers with their next gaming model"

Gaming model =/= only own devices

Realistically though what makes that model particularly special, if it's basically an extension of what they're already doing? Most likely that's going to rely on them publishing more games on PlayStation & Nintendo in addition to Steam, something they're doing now. I don't see them getting Game Pass on other consoles (or Steam, for that matter), so its addressable markets are the same as usual.

Like yeah, there's certainly 100+ million gamers to target but why call it "next" when it is mostly the same as current? The only major change will come with their own hardware, in going with a PC hybrid design approach, opening it up to OEMs etc. But that will only fuel a smaller niche component of the actual total gamers they can target going forward.

Why does it matter what API are games using? Win32 is perfectly fine, its subset is already supported on consoles and ERA migration library (EMiLi) exists. A lot of win32 on Windows has seen oxidation so this + smaller attack surface is a no-brainer.

I guess it's more a question of BC support. A lot of OG Xbox & 360 games don't run on Windows due to missing libraries that'd have to be integrated, so hopefully that's something MS are serious in addressing.

But switching to Win32 also means future games can't run on Series S & X unless they provide extended support for Win32 libraries at the OS & kernel level. Xbox OS might be based on Windows but it's still its own thing and heavily customized, it's probably not trivial to implement that support.
 
Like yeah, there's certainly 100+ million gamers to target but why call it "next" when it is mostly the same as current? The only major change will come with their own hardware, in going with a PC hybrid design approach, opening it up to OEMs etc. But that will only fuel a smaller niche component of the actual total gamers they can target going forward.
They want to see the 100+ million gamers on their Game Pass service, that's what I meant. And these gamers will probably be reached on traditional PCs with a modernized Game Pass integrated into the Xbox OS. XboxPCs in console form will be located within the PC market, their role will primarily be to retain users who currently have Xbox consoles.

For all this, they clearly need to come up with a very good software/business model that is better than the current one.
 
I'm kinda curious if a small HBM-PIM cache (say, 1 GB) would give any functional advantage in a next-gen system likely using GDDR7, though. I know in terms of bandwidth it'd probably smoke what GDDR7 could offer, and at lower power consumption, plus possibly being integrated directly on the package (so, much shorter traces & better latency). Would it be worth the cost vs. just using all GDDR7 tho, I don't know.

I think the probability of using HBM in PS6 is low, but not zero. HBM is expensive, but GDDR7 is not cheap and should be more power hungry than HBM. It would be too cost prohibitive to utilize both technologies. It will be one or the other.

PS5 pro has 16GB of GDDR6 with 576 BW and as a console it's pushing what I would consider a reasonable power consumption level. I would argue that next gen will need at least 2x bandwidth and 1.5-2.0x memory capacity so I think that forces at least GDDR7.

GDDR7 on a 256-bit bus with 3GB chips would give you a max of capacity of 24 GB and a max bandwidth of 1.5 TB/sec. But this bandwidth is likely past the optimal power efficiency point.
A HMB3e single stack of HMB3e could provide 24-36 GB of capacity with up to 1.2 TB/sec, but I bet at a drastically lower power consumption than GDDR7. ( GB200 in comparison has 8 HBM stacks )

By 2028, NVIDIA should be fully transitioned to HBM4 so maybe that will leave free up supply of HMB3e for other users...
 
I think the probability of using HBM in PS6 is low, but not zero. HBM is expensive, but GDDR7 is not cheap and should be more power hungry than HBM. It would be too cost prohibitive to utilize both technologies. It will be one or the other.

PS5 pro has 16GB of GDDR6 with 576 BW and as a console it's pushing what I would consider a reasonable power consumption level. I would argue that next gen will need at least 2x bandwidth and 1.5-2.0x memory capacity so I think that forces at least GDDR7.

GDDR7 on a 256-bit bus with 3GB chips would give you a max of capacity of 24 GB and a max bandwidth of 1.5 TB/sec. But this bandwidth is likely past the optimal power efficiency point.
A HMB3e single stack of HMB3e could provide 24-36 GB of capacity with up to 1.2 TB/sec, but I bet at a drastically lower power consumption than GDDR7. ( GB200 in comparison has 8 HBM stacks )

By 2028, NVIDIA should be fully transitioned to HBM4 so maybe that will leave free up supply of HMB3e for other users...
I dont see HBM being used on the PS6, GDRR7 or whatever latest variant of gddr7 will be enough. Also 32GB at the very least
 
I think the probability of using HBM in PS6 is low, but not zero. HBM is expensive, but GDDR7 is not cheap

GDDR7 will be "cheap" (relatively speaking) once the industry transitions and economy of scale kicks in.

By 2028, NVIDIA should be fully transitioned to HBM4 so maybe that will leave free up supply of HMB3e for other users...

The thing to keep in mind is HBM brings higher packaging complexity and costs, and yield loss costs. It's not just a comparison of the memory chips itself compared to GDDR.
 
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