Nvidia DLSS antialiasing discussion *spawn*

Discussion in 'Architecture and Products' started by DavidGraham, Sep 19, 2018.

Tags:
  1. Scott_Arm

    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2004
    Messages:
    14,753
    Likes Received:
    6,882
    They're the same thing. Radeon Image Sharpening is implemented at the driver level, so it'll sharpen the entire image. CAS is the same type of sharpening but implemented at the game level, so they can do things like sharpening the image before overlaying the HUD.
     
  2. Kaotik

    Kaotik Drunk Member
    Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2003
    Messages:
    9,778
    Likes Received:
    3,947
    Location:
    Finland
    Double checked and you're apparently right, I remembered RIS being simpler sharpening
     
  3. Leoneazzurro5

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2020
    Messages:
    226
    Likes Received:
    249
  4. Scott_Arm

    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2004
    Messages:
    14,753
    Likes Received:
    6,882
    I don't think it does anything particularly interesting for upscaling. It's just a trivial upscale method with sharpening applied. Nvidia offers gpu upscaling before sharping in their drivers, but they explicitly state some tvs/displays will have higher tap upscale filters than nvidia provides with their gpus.
     
    PSman1700 and DegustatoR like this.
  5. Leoneazzurro5

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2020
    Messages:
    226
    Likes Received:
    249
    Never said it does something particular, only that it does allow for upscaling while RIS should have not a similar option IIRC.
     
  6. trinibwoy

    trinibwoy Meh
    Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2004
    Messages:
    11,200
    Likes Received:
    1,748
    Location:
    New York
    Well this assertion is surely nonsense.

    I had the same question as Scott, what exactly are we calling native? Clearly there is no artifact free “perfect” baseline to which we’re comparing DLSS.
     
  7. Leoneazzurro5

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2020
    Messages:
    226
    Likes Received:
    249
    Not more nonsense that affirming that upscaling a downsample is better than a not-downsampled signal.
    If someone wants to repeat the Death Stranding case, it is a game programmed with arse because it applies unhealthy levels temporal AA on everything blurring the image (but hey, it does not introduce moving artifacts like it happens with DLSS...)
    In the case of CoD images i posted we see that that game does not apply unreasonable amount of IQ reducing TAA - the result is that you can perceive the IQ loss when applying DLSS as per the images posted. Which can be perfectly fine for many (most of?) people given the performance inrease, while others may find it differently.
    Personally, I find it useful as I'm using a Mobile RTX2070 and Control is a very unoptimized game, even at 1080p.
     
  8. Malo

    Malo Yak Mechanicum
    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2002
    Messages:
    8,271
    Likes Received:
    4,693
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    64x SSAA? Isn't that what DLSS is trained on as the source of truth?
     
  9. iroboto

    iroboto Daft Funk
    Legend Regular Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2014
    Messages:
    12,990
    Likes Received:
    15,721
    Location:
    The North
    16K super sample IIRC.
     
    PSman1700 likes this.
  10. eastmen

    Legend Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2008
    Messages:
    12,411
    Likes Received:
    3,356
    except now they are putting out videos of console games getting patched . So you have the game performance and then the patched performance and then the sponsered performance and so on.
     
  11. pjbliverpool

    pjbliverpool B3D Scallywag
    Legend

    Joined:
    May 8, 2005
    Messages:
    8,545
    Likes Received:
    2,889
    Location:
    Guess...
    Some reviews absolutely do say it can look better than native. Not in every game, but certainly in some. And in those that it's not, it's clearly close.
     
    PSman1700, pharma and Rootax like this.
  12. Leoneazzurro5

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2020
    Messages:
    226
    Likes Received:
    249
    The only one they say it may look better than DLSS is Death Stranding. Which has the horrible issues of exaggerated TAA applied everywhere. Even FFX CAS looks better than that. The other titles, they cannot say. I.e. Control, which I have and play with, and I used DLSS and you can clearly see there is an IQ loss. Low, but perceivable. Watch Dogs: Legion and CoD are the most recent exampes of the same behavior. It's close? Yes, it's close. Never said otherwise.
     
    #1332 Leoneazzurro5, Dec 1, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2020
  13. trinibwoy

    trinibwoy Meh
    Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2004
    Messages:
    11,200
    Likes Received:
    1,748
    Location:
    New York
    That’s not what’s being compared. DLSS isn’t just upscaling. It’s also antialiasing. You seem to be arguing a theoretical point that’s not relevant to how modern games actually work.

    In some games DLSS looks better than native and in some games it doesn’t. The reason for that is that native has its own share of artifacts.

    Your position only makes sense if “native” represented ideal IQ. It doesn’t.
     
  14. Malo

    Malo Yak Mechanicum
    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2002
    Messages:
    8,271
    Likes Received:
    4,693
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Yeah the problem here is that the "native" comparison tends to be against the native resolution with TAA, which is rather horrible to begin with. Unfortunately many games nowadays don't come with any other AA solutions and don't offer above-native internal rendering options.
     
  15. Leoneazzurro5

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2020
    Messages:
    226
    Likes Received:
    249
    The only game where this can be said (DS) takes an image produced by the game engine and applies an exxagerated post-processing that lowers some parts of the IQ. If DLSS used the same "native" image at a lower resolution as input, it would result in worse IQ. This does not happen because in that case DLSS does not use the lower IQ "native", but it takes the not processed version in the pipeline. In practically all other games, and I gave plenty of examples about, the "native" IQ is not devastated by absurd postprocessing and thus DLSS image shows some quality loss, as it should be. Then take it as you want.
     
  16. Scott_Arm

    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2004
    Messages:
    14,753
    Likes Received:
    6,882
    NightAntilli, PSman1700 and pharma like this.
  17. trinibwoy

    trinibwoy Meh
    Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2004
    Messages:
    11,200
    Likes Received:
    1,748
    Location:
    New York
    Isn’t Control also considered a showcase for DLSS IQ? Either way it seems you’re contradicting your own point. In games where native sucks then it is accurate to say that DLSS is better than native.

    Your argument is that DLSS can never beat a theoretical ideal native render and nobody disagrees with that.
     
  18. Leoneazzurro5

    Newcomer

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2020
    Messages:
    226
    Likes Received:
    249
    Control is a case where IQ loss is very minimal. But there is an IQ loss and it's quite easy to see it. Of course in the middle of action it's difficult to pay attention to it. Literally the only case where you can say DLSS is better than "native" is Death Stranding, period (and this only in static images, because it seems there are some issues in motion every now and then, and in cutscenes, as reported by Ars Technica). And this has quite precise motives. In all other cases, Control included, this is simply not true and thus it is not representative.
     
  19. manux

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2002
    Messages:
    2,795
    Likes Received:
    1,977
    Location:
    Earth
    Maybe it's time to chill. It's not like anyone here is going to change their opinions if they already didn't do so. At least not unless some concrete new evidence is presented. CyberPunk2077 and bloodlines, those are the dlss titles I'm looking forward to seeing in action. I'm hoping my 3070 can run those games without dlss @1440p maxed. If not, then dlss2.0 becomes choice I might have to make depending where the best quality compromise for me is found.

    Blast from the past

    upload_2020-12-1_14-51-43.jpeg

    [​IMG]
     
    PSman1700 and pharma like this.
  20. DavidGraham

    Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2009
    Messages:
    3,500
    Likes Received:
    4,109
    Nope.

    Control
    MechWarrior 5
    Wolfenstein Youngblood
    Minecraft
    Death Stranding
    Deliver Us The Moon
    Bright Memory

    And many others show the exact same phenomenon, DLSS 2 being equal or better than native.
     
Loading...

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...