NGGP: NextGen Garbage Pile (aka: No one reads the topics or stays on topic) *spawn*

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Sony has stuff like this in Japan
http://www.jp.playstation.com/ps3/torne/
http://nasne.com/setting/index.html
Even streams to two Sony devices at once if you like.
So ya I don't see why can't PS4 do it if they design around it.

Tourne doesn't work for all games. Nasne is a network server-based Tourne but I think the bottleneck is on the PS3 side. So it should have the same limitations as Tourne.

I don't think live streaming is anything a console in this generation can (and should) do due to the variables and configuration details involved.
Live streaming involves a lot of customization, mixing, etc. that each streamer wants that simply cannot be done if you don't have another PC doing the work.
Any live streamer today will probably tell you that having the console to live stream by itself is quite dumb and they'd rather bring in a capture card and go from there.

Even while playing on iOS, we felt the need for game spectating. We don't want a host babbling while spectating though.

Something to stream the data to another small hardware for record and spectating would be fine for us.
 
Based on the website you provided, I used the following parameters:
H.264@1080p HD High quality, 30 fps, gives about 12 Mbps

Buffing it to 60fps we're looking at a maximum bitrate of 24Mbps.

Turns out to be 3MB of HD space per second.
lengthen that to 15 mins we're looking at 2.7GB. Still not very large for the harddrive to take.
This should be the ballpark figure we could expect.


373 MB/s off from the bandwidth refers to the hit on the RAM bandwidth due to the encoder reading off the frame buffer 60 times a second. Of course assuming we want 60fps recordings. :smile:
Either way, 373 MB/s is a breeze for the currently rumored RAM bandwidth.
Doubling the frame rate does not double the bit rate. At 60FPS, most frames will be practically identical to their predecessor. Since you only need to encode motion vectors and differences from previous frames, a 14-15Mbps stream would probably provide about the same quality for 60fps as a 12Mbps stream would for 30fps.

The 1080p streams on XBox Video are encoded at around 6Mbps, but you couldn't expect that kind of performance from a real-time encoder. The streams for movies are hand tuned to provide the best possible picture they can in the allotted bandwidth. When we were doing it for HD DVD, some scenes would get re-encoded dozens of times until they found the best set of parameters for that particular scene.
 
Doubling the frame rate does not double the bit rate. At 60FPS, most frames will be practically identical to their predecessor. Since you only need to encode motion vectors and differences from previous frames, a 14-15Mbps stream would probably provide about the same quality for 60fps as a 12Mbps stream would for 30fps.

The 1080p streams on XBox Video are encoded at around 6Mbps, but you couldn't expect that kind of performance from a real-time encoder. The streams for movies are hand tuned to provide the best possible picture they can in the allotted bandwidth. When we were doing it for HD DVD, some scenes would get re-encoded dozens of times until they found the best set of parameters for that particular scene.

Yes I was aware of that. I was giving worst case scenarios and an upper limit to what doing this would cost the HD. :smile:
Games do become hectic and may require more frequent keyframes when we up the fps from 30 to 60. Either way doubling the bitrate would surely preserve IQ while doubling frame rate.

if it is a SSD I agree, but if it's a 5400/7200, the seek time will KILL performances

Not if you cache it properly... you don't have to write to it every millisecond.
We're also looking at some 500MB or so of rumored RAM reserved for the OS.

Tourne doesn't work for all games. Nasne is a network server-based Tourne but I think the bottleneck is on the PS3 side. So it should have the same limitations as Tourne.



Even while playing on iOS, we felt the need for game spectating. We don't want a host babbling while spectating though.

Something to stream the data to another small hardware for record and spectating would be fine for us.

You mean game spectating without the game or with the game?

Having the host babbling or not is the host's choice to stream/not stream/ though.
Some want to have themselves HEARD!:LOL:
 
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Haha, sorry to sound rude. I don't mean it that way. What I meant was we want a simple way to watch either our own games, or someone else's quietly (with their permission of course).

It can be done in-game or at the "OS" level (We don't mind either). I guess if it's at the OS level, it would be a good marketing tool for the developers.

I wouldn't mind a separate, small h/w to do it. Or a server-based solution like OnLive and Gaikai.
 
Haha, sorry to sound rude. I don't mean it that way. What I meant was we want a simple way to watch either our own games, or someone else's quietly (with their permission of course).

It can be done in-game or at the "OS" level (We don't mind either). I guess if it's at the OS level, it would be a good marketing tool for the developers.

It's ok, you don't. XD

Problem with live streaming that a DVR-like service doesn't require is that you'd need to host something like twitch "just" for your console which requires a lot of investment and a very fast internet connection on the host's end to support it.

In-game spectate should be a feature that devs can do if they like.
This shouldn't be a feature the console maker can and needs to consider.

Doing it at the OS level requires the console to take the video, compress it to some level that the player deems acceptable for his own internet connection and IQ, and then upload it in real time to some server in the cloud, be it twitch, ustream, youtube, or some new Sony/Microsoft service.

I don't see Sony or Microsoft adding in such a complex, expensive, prone to fail feature that only a few users can take advantage of.

Most streamers would simply turn to a second PC+capture card.
Other users would probably be just fine with being able to upload shorter clips that the console saved.



Either way, this rumored DVR functionality is a very pleasant surprise.
It wasn't on my mind before this, and after thinking it through carefully it's a brilliant idea that seems to be totally doable within the boundaries of next-gen consoles.
 
Personally, I don't see Sony making use of live streaming out of the PS4 at all.

It just sounds too costly, and making it work with so many third party apps sounds like a waste of money for a feature only a few people would really get use of.

Sharing screenshots and pictures of glitches and funny ragdolls sounds much simpler, and a video encode is more consistent with Remote Play features and the potential future of integrating mobile devices with the 'home base' that should be PS4 and the cloud.

If PS4 lets you upload a video to Youtube (functionality which I'm pretty sure is in PS3, but very limited), and lets the player edit and cut to whichever scene seamlessly, that sounds like something more worthwhile. Games will get free advertising just based on video uploads.

Sony should want PS4 to be a media center and media hub (games, movies, music), not just a twitch.tv streaming device.
 
I "love" what the press is gonna say when people start livecasting really violent games - especially if some crazed gunman does this before going on a shooting spree.

Sounds like a risky feature to include, for a bunch of reasons, if this is true. Also, seems like a bit of a left turn kind of feature - where's the widespread demand for it? Seems like an idea looking for a problem to fix kind of feature, rather like Home was. Throw it out there, hope it takes off somehow; ride the social media hypewave, something like that.

Check youtube, COD, Battlefield players wanting a Battlerecorder. I think the market is out there. Everybody wants to be a star.
 
Way behind on the conversation :LOL: I'll return to lurker mode.....quick question is there no edit feature after one posts. I can't seem to find it, please excuse me for my ignorance. :oops:
 
All I know is it sounds like both companies are going to do some interesting services, which is probably going to make this one of the more enjoyable console launches. Previous gens, all you really expected was better visuals. Now there's a lot more being offered, and the services could be vastly different.
 
All I know is it sounds like both companies are going to do some interesting services, which is probably going to make this one of the more enjoyable console launches. Previous gens, all you really expected was better visuals. Now there's a lot more being offered, and the services could be vastly different.

One of the reasons this generation was able to survive 8 years in my opinion.
 
Post count too low, me think.

Gotcha!;) Thanks, I fully expect Microsoft to have some sort of recording ability as well. I'm thinking full on streaming from them, I'm not sure if that's possible to have like a 720p stream. I just think anything less than that is wouldn't be worth it. At least it would be something that would up the value of Live and I'm sure XboxTv will be there.

Are most people now expecting both consoles to launch this year...in the states? I remember an article with a Gamestop exect. saying they only expected one console this year. I'm searching for the article. http://www.computerandvideogames.co...just-one-new-console-in-2013-another-in-2014/

Also I thought one of the consoles was having manufacturing problems.

I'm guessing no truth to either of those rumours:???:
 
I think some of the video upload ideas need to be more grounded in reality. I'm thinking more along the lines of Vine service from Twitter. Recording little snippets of video that can be sent privately to friends as messages or posted to your social stream to view like Facebook or Twitter.

Tommy McClain
 
Regarding the 15 min. mentioned for the share feature. That's a number that makes sense, as I believe that's the max. video time for uploaded videos to Youtube unless you are a Youtube partner.

I wonder how the PS3 is going to handle that though. Assuming a game is streaming resources from the HDD there is going to be some conflicts over HDD access. And considering PS3 has only 4 GB of memory you can't buffer a significant amount of video before having to write to disk. Unless games only have access to 2 GB of memory? But that would seem far too low.

And you certainly wouldn't want to interrupt the video stream to disk as that would negate the whole purpose of recording the last 15 minutes of video. But if you don't then you may introduce problems with streaming game data off the HDD.

It makes me wonder if the 15 minutes of persistent video recording will be limited to 480p or possibly low bitrate (low quality) 720p/30.

On Durango this won't be a problem as they could theoretically buffer all 15 minutes of 1080p video in non-game memory.

Regards,
SB
 
Regarding the 15 min. mentioned for the share feature. That's a number that makes sense, as I believe that's the max. video time for uploaded videos to Youtube unless you are a Youtube partner.

I wonder how the PS3 is going to handle that though. Assuming a game is streaming resources from the HDD there is going to be some conflicts over HDD access. And considering PS3 has only 4 GB of memory you can't buffer a significant amount of video before having to write to disk. Unless games only have access to 2 GB of memory? But that would seem far too low.

And you certainly wouldn't want to interrupt the video stream to disk as that would negate the whole purpose of recording the last 15 minutes of video. But if you don't then you may introduce problems with streaming game data off the HDD.

It makes me wonder if the 15 minutes of persistent video recording will be limited to 480p or possibly low bitrate (low quality) 720p/30.

On Durango this won't be a problem as they could theoretically buffer all 15 minutes of 1080p video in non-game memory.

Regards,
SB

Couldn't you use RAM until HDD access is available?

Also you are right about the 15 minutes limit. You need to have special status accounts to get more than 15 minutes.

That's why I think all this streaming stuff won't happen. I think it will simply be uploads to Youtube.
 
Regarding the 15 min. mentioned for the share feature. That's a number that makes sense, as I believe that's the max. video time for uploaded videos to Youtube unless you are a Youtube partner.

I wonder how the PS3 is going to handle that though. Assuming a game is streaming resources from the HDD there is going to be some conflicts over HDD access. And considering PS3 has only 4 GB of memory you can't buffer a significant amount of video before having to write to disk. Unless games only have access to 2 GB of memory? But that would seem far too low.

And you certainly wouldn't want to interrupt the video stream to disk as that would negate the whole purpose of recording the last 15 minutes of video. But if you don't then you may introduce problems with streaming game data off the HDD.

It makes me wonder if the 15 minutes of persistent video recording will be limited to 480p or possibly low bitrate (low quality) 720p/30.

On Durango this won't be a problem as they could theoretically buffer all 15 minutes of 1080p video in non-game memory.

Regards,
SB

Buffering 1 minute of video under 24Mbps (pretty much worst case scenario) bit rate is 180MB, which only takes 2 to 3 seconds to write to the HD.

OS reserved is rumored to be 512MB so fitting as much as 1 minute of video shouldn't be much of a problem.

I doubt any game will be so badly coded to require HDD access constantly.

As an example, FRAPS has a very inefficient encoder that eats up around 4GB per like 2 minutes of video (720p) and putting the folder where Fraps writes to in the game hard drive doesn't pose a problem at all.
 
Now, 50% more flops isnt in line with "slightly", so either special sauce is real, 4 CU's are indeed out of the rendering game on PS4, or some of both, it would seem.

I will take a "slightly less powerful" console with gobs more RAM and take my chances anyday...

As ERP has said, 50% more FLOPS will only help you in ALU limited situations (all other things being equal), which would only be a 10-20% advantage in the real world (not including any 'special sauce' that might help Durango)

Hence 50% more FLOPs = slightly more powerful in real world terms.
 
And 50% faster in ALU limited scenarios, which is more than "slightly more powerful."

If you insiders were really insiders we could get some complete specs and architectural information to do real discussion other than the silly banter.

I think this would be a good opportunity for some hardware encoding, although there could possibly be some CU involvement.

One thing to note, when comparing the 14+4 rumor and the Microsoft patents that might have been the source of some of the net rumors for Durango, is that both mention the same basic idea where there is either a physical or software partitioning of resources in order to maintain quality of service and latency limits.
The reserved resources are either system reserved or accessible only through an API that makes the system the gatekeeper and arbiter.
Basically, developers are allowed more freedom with their application-accessible resources, but the system reserves enough resources or reserves the right to override request priority to keep software from taking the rest of the functionality down with it.

I do see that a touchpad works fine for those center buttons, which don't need rapid response or tactile feedback.
Imagine if there were an e-ink costomizable button screen there. Power would be minimal, and there wouldn't be a demand for interactive updates.

QOS seems to be a good explanation for a 14+4 arrangement where the extra 4 offer slight improvement.
 
And 50% faster in ALU limited scenarios, which is more than "slightly more powerful."

If you insiders were really insiders we could get some complete specs and architectural information to do real discussion other than the silly banter.



QOS seems to be a good explanation for a 14+4 arrangement where the extra 4 offer slight improvement.

QFT, all we really have is pandas.
 
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