NGGP: NextGen Garbage Pile (aka: No one reads the topics or stays on topic) *spawn*

[patsu]

The leaked spec does include a video encoder and decoder. So the CU should be used for something else for the most part. I am more keen to see if the video unit is a standard AMD part.

After the Sony CTO's talk about reprogramable logic, perhaps the video encoder/decoder is a good starting point for it ? H.265 specs is official but there are still some uncertainty/tweaks at the tech level.

 

[anexanhume]

I don't expect H.265 to drive anything in the consoles. Sure, it'd be nice to run in lower power while decoding, but these consoles are going to be able to handle it without sweating.

 

[Xenio]

The leaked spec does include a video encoder and decoder. So the CU should be used for something else for the most part. I am more keen to see if the video unit is a standard AMD part.

After the Sony CTO's talk about reprogramable logic, perhaps the video encoder/decoder is a good starting point for it ? H.265 specs is official but there are still some uncertainty/tweaks at the tech level.

but a 15 min 1080P video where will be computed and stored and what bus will be hit by the load? it's quite a lot of space

 

[patsu]

*If* they use H.265, it would most likely be for 4K Blu-ray.

It might preclude serving games via RemotePlay at the same time. Perhaps this is where Durango will excel ?

 

[Strange]

I "love" what the press is gonna say when people start livecasting really violent games - especially if some crazed gunman does this before going on a shooting spree.

Sounds like a risky feature to include, for a bunch of reasons, if this is true. Also, seems like a bit of a left turn kind of feature - where's the widespread demand for it? Seems like an idea looking for a problem to fix kind of feature, rather like Home was. Throw it out there, hope it takes off somehow; ride the social media hypewave, something like that.

People do it on livestreams (where they are also constantly recoreded) already. It's not as if it's anything new.

Current problem is that you need a lot of time and a bit of money to record properly as opposed to recording on PC. Doing all this on the console makes the whole experience much accessible to the average player.

Every player will have a time when they feel that they've just seen a WOW moment and would like to have an audience to appreciate it, whether it for laughs or some other emotion.

 

[Strange]

but a 15 min 1080P video where will be computed and stored and what bus will be hit by the load? it's quite a lot of space

compression could be done through specialized hardware encoder.
Storage wise you have a hard drive, and 15 mins of 1080p video @ 8Mbps is about 60MB/minute= 900MB per 15 mins. Not too much if we expect next gen hardware to have something in the realm of ~500GB HD.

In a closed box system it's even more simple for the hardware encoder to just take the frame off the frame buffer. I don't think it will be as much a hit as you think.

1 frame is 24bit *1920*1080= 6.22 MB/frame?
60 fps turns that to about 373 MB/s off from the bandwidth.
Someone check my math please.

Assuming they're using 4GB GDDR5 @ 176 GB/s and my math is correct, reading off the frame buffer is really close to nothing.

PS4 starting to sound like having a built in DVR lol

 

[anexanhume]

*If* they use H.265, it would most likely be for 4K Blu-ray.

It might preclude serving games via RemotePlay at the same time. Perhaps this is where Durango will excel ?

Why would they need H.265 for 4K blu ray? Would they be compressing and decompressing the signal internally?

 

[Rangers]

I "love" what the press is gonna say when people start livecasting really violent games - especially if some crazed gunman does this before going on a shooting spree.

Sounds like a risky feature to include, for a bunch of reasons, if this is true. Also, seems like a bit of a left turn kind of feature - where's the widespread demand for it? Seems like an idea looking for a problem to fix kind of feature, rather like Home was. Throw it out there, hope it takes off somehow; ride the social media hypewave, something like that.

it's huge on youtube. pretty much a cottage industry really. Here is just an example off the top of my head, this guy, but there are dozens, hundreds, thousands >> http://www.youtube.com/user/BroKenGaMezHD

i'm sure it's been rumored and will be in durango too.

 

[Rangers]

Called it, said 8 GB yesterday.

Let's see that ~5.5 GB/frame at 30fps be fully put to use.

We should bet too. I can make a killing off these wishful thinking bets

 

[patsu]

Why would they need H.265 for 4K blu ray? Would they be compressing and decompressing the signal internally?

I have no details. They decoded the BR movies and Java applets with Cell the last time around.

 

[patsu]

People do it on livestreams (where they are also constantly recoreded) already. It's not as if it's anything new.

Current problem is that you need a lot of time and a bit of money to record properly as opposed to recording on PC. Doing all this on the console makes the whole experience much accessible to the average player.

Every player will have a time when they feel that they've just seen a WOW moment and would like to have an audience to appreciate it, whether it for laughs or some other emotion.

Sounds like the controller "Share" feature can only record up to 15 minutes without causing hiccups.

The live streaming (aka spectating) feature is more interesting IMHO. Vita has a live streaming app, but it doesn't have the resources to stream live games I think. An On-Live style universal spectating feature would be amazing.

It is not easy to do, but I the spectating feature in RFOM. That game has done so many online gaming features right at launch.

 

[Xenio]

compression could be done through specialized hardware encoder.
Storage wise you have a hard drive, and 15 mins of 1080p video @ 8Mbps is about 60MB/minute= 900MB per 15 mins.

1 frame is 24bit *1920*1080= 6.22 MB/frame?
60 fps turns that to about 373 MB/s off from the bandwidth.
Someone check my math please.

1080p50 is nominally 2.08 Gb/s
x60 seconds = 124,8 Gb
x15 minutes= 1872 Tb

talking in bytes and not in bit = 234 GB
if the game runs in 60 FPS = 280 GB

using http://www.stardot.com/bandwidth-and-storage-calculator (1h @15fps = 15 mins @60fps) it says 2.7 GB so the same

bandwidth used = 6.0 Mbps


I hope that UVD will compress on the fly, and that the ratio of compression will be VERY good

 

[Strange]

Sounds like the controller "Share" feature can only record up to 15 minutes without causing hiccups.

The live streaming (aka spectating) feature is more interesting IMHO. Vita has a live streaming app, but it doesn't have the resources to stream live games I think. An On-Live style universal spectating feature would be amazing.

It is not easy to do, but I the spectating feature in RFOM. That game has done so many online gaming features right at launch.

They should be able to do it way above 15 mins. Problem is, do most gamers NEED over 15 mins. Most game play gets dull after the 5 min mark, so 15 mins sounds good to me.

The system should allow you to save the current 15 mins into a file(which should just a simple rename), and start recording in a new file.

Problem is where do you want the cutoff for this. 15 mins taking up 1GB of space sounds like a good starting point.




This is very different from live streaming and I don't think they can and will incorporate live streaming into PS4 due numerous issues.

I mentioned live streaming because I've been doing it for my PS3 for about 4 years on twitch.tv (or justin.tv) and their servers automatically save whatever you stream, in effect allowing me to do what the PS4 is rumored to be able to do.

However, I do have the equipment, internet connection, and knowledge base to do it properly and PS4's solution makes it loads easier for the average Joe to DVR their gameplay and share it online.

 

[Xenio]

15 mins taking up 1GB of space sounds like a good starting point.

how you do the math?
have you ever seen a 2 Hour film in 1080P @60FPS on a DVD DL?

 

[patsu]

They should be able to do it way above 15 mins. Problem is, do most gamers NEED over 15 mins. Most game play gets dull after the 5 min mark, so 15 mins sounds good to me.

The system should allow you to save the current 15 mins into a file(which should just a simple rename), and start recording in a new file.

Problem is where do you want the cutoff for this. 15 mins taking up 1GB of space sounds like a good starting point.

*If* PS4 can save more than 15 minutes of gameplay ( I doubt it ), perhaps we can infer that it could roughly run a DVR save stream in parallel ( for all games ) ?

This is very different from live streaming and I don't think they can and will incorporate live streaming into PS4 due numerous issues.

I mentioned live streaming because I've been doing it for my PS3 for about 4 years on twitch.tv (or justin.tv) and their servers automatically save whatever you stream, in effect allowing me to do what the PS4 is rumored to be able to do.

However, I do have the equipment, internet connection, and knowledge base to do it properly and PS4's solution makes it loads easier for the average Joe to DVR their gameplay and share it online.

Then this is where Sony will be beaten. ^_^
I suspect nextgen gaming will be heavy on this sort of community interaction.

 

[Strange]

1080p50 is nominally 2.08 Gb/s
x60 seconds = 124,8 Gb
x15 minutes= 1872 Tb

talking in bytes and not in bit = 234 GB
if the game runs in 60 FPS = 280 GB

using http://www.stardot.com/bandwidth-and-storage-calculator (1h @15fps = 15 mins @60fps) it says 2.7 GB so the same

bandwidth used = 6.0 Mbps


I hope that UVD will compress on the fly, and that the ratio of compression will be VERY good

Based on the website you provided, I used the following parameters:
H.264@1080p HD High quality, 30 fps, gives about 12 Mbps

Buffing it to 60fps we're looking at a maximum bitrate of 24Mbps.

Turns out to be 3MB of HD space per second.
lengthen that to 15 mins we're looking at 2.7GB. Still not very large for the harddrive to take.
This should be the ballpark figure we could expect.


373 MB/s off from the bandwidth refers to the hit on the RAM bandwidth due to the encoder reading off the frame buffer 60 times a second. Of course assuming we want 60fps recordings. :smile:
Either way, 373 MB/s is a breeze for the currently rumored RAM bandwidth.

 

[Strange]

*If* PS4 can save more than 15 minutes of gameplay, perhaps we can infer that it could roughly run a DVR save stream in parallel ?



Then this is where Sony will be beaten. ^_^
I suspect nextgen gaming will be heavy on this sort of community interaction.

Sony has stuff like this in Japan
http://www.jp.playstation.com/ps3/torne/
http://nasne.com/setting/index.html
Even streams to two Sony devices at once if you like.
So ya I don't see why can't PS4 do it if they design around it.



I don't think live streaming is anything a console in this generation can (and should) do due to the variables and configuration details involved.
Live streaming involves a lot of customization, mixing, etc. that each streamer wants that simply cannot be done if you don't have another PC doing the work.
Any live streamer today will probably tell you that having the console to live stream by itself is quite dumb and they'd rather bring in a capture card and go from there.

 

[Xenio]

373 MB/s is a breeze for the currently rumored RAM bandwidth.

but the disk will be quite busy, and it have to cache textures and assets and stream it to ram too, am i wrong?

 

[Strange]

how you do the math?
have you ever seen a 2 Hour film in 1080P @60FPS on a DVD DL?

For 1080p, high quality IQ @ 60fps the recommended bitrate is around 24 mbps.
That means 24 mega bits per second = 3 mega Bytes per second.
Of course we're missing audio here but it's negligible.

Extrapolate to 15 minutes and you get 2700 MB for 15 minutes.

 

[Strange]

but the disk will be quite busy, and it have to cache textures and assets and stream it to ram too, am i wrong?

3 MB/second is a small hit on the HD considering HDs read and write at more than 50 MB/s easily.