NGGP: NextGen Garbage Pile (aka: No one reads the topics or stays on topic) *spawn*

[(((interference)))]

http://ilikecode.wordpress.com/2013/02/12/stupid-stupid-xbox/

A good read on some of what's wrong with the Xbox division by one of the founders of the original Xbox project.

 

[aladin]

I think you are missing the picture. ..sony will likely have a small lead on cross platform games (slightly bigger on 1st party)...where as xbox will enable things that sony can't thanks to kinect 2..

I also feel this illumiroom will be introduced as a mid life kicker similar to how kinect was.

I think there will be parity for sure. PS4 architecture seems dev friendly by the looks of it unlike PS3. Even PS3 and 360 difference is hardly even noticeable or relevant.

Although I have already decided. What I am trying to say even if you think as a new gamers perspective looking into console gaming. There is very little incentive for xbox.

You may be right about Kinect2. Since Kinect some how is popular

 

[Love_In_Rio]

http://ilikecode.wordpress.com/2013/02/12/stupid-stupid-xbox/

A good read on some of what's wrong with the Xbox division by one of the founders of the original Xbox project.

I don´t agree with him. What he pretends is what people like bkillian and most members of this forum hate, the approaching to the Android and IOS way...

 

[french toast]

I think there will be parity for sure. PS4 architecture seems dev friendly by the looks of it unlike PS3. Even PS3 and 360 difference is hardly even noticeable or relevant.

Although I have already decided. What I am trying to say even if you think as a new gamers perspective looking into console gaming. There is very little incentive for xbox.

You may be right about Kinect2. Since Kinect some how is popular

Well it will be popular because it will be bundled by default

Because the new kinect seems to be much more advanced than v1 it will be able to be used in more core games...also devs will be able to create much better games with it featured. ..as its in every box

All im saying is for both consoles what constitutes a great gaming experience will be more than simply who has the best graphics by 20%....illumiroom/kinect 2 and both eyetoy/move will see to that.

 

[french toast]

That story in your link is incorrect. Major Nelson's tweet just says 46 million Live members. That includes both Silver and Gold levels.

Also, the latest Kinect figures imply it sold pretty badly last year, like half what it did in 2011, probably mostly in console bundles.

Ok appologies..I thought it was fully paid up.

 

[dumbo11]

Because the new kinect seems to be much more advanced than v1 it will be able to be used in more core games...also devs will be able to create much better games with it featured. ..as its in every box

In practice it does not seem much more advanced than v1 - it's possible that the hardware is "extremely similar" (AFAIR the original depth camera had a 640x480 output, but it was reduced to 320x240 due to bandwidth problems in the USB interface).

Instead the primary focus of V2 appeared to be 'always on'.
- with the 360 if you enable kinect, you lost RAM, CPU and GPU resources. If you were making a core game, there was no way you were going to flick a switch that makes your game suck.
- with Durango the original design was to 'dedicate' the processing resource... slightly reducing the power of the raw console, but making Kinect 'free'. If you are making a core game, enabling kinect features is 'free', so you might as well do it.

The leaks I've seen haven't mentioned where that processing occurs within kinect - it's possible that a jaguar core does this... but more logically the GPU would be leveraged.

All im saying is for both consoles what constitutes a great gaming experience will be more than simply who has the best graphics by 20%.... illumiroom/kinect 2 and both eyetoy/move will see to that.

I think that will become especially true as we move beyond 'console is a box you put disks in' to the planned 'console is a client for the cloud'.

 

[Love_In_Rio]

In practice it does not seem much more advanced than v1 - it's possible that the hardware is "extremely similar" (AFAIR the original depth camera had a 640x480 output, but it was reduced to 320x240 due to bandwidth problems in the USB interface).

I am dissapointed in going only from 20 to 25 joints processed. Not fingers tracking reduces a lot its interactive possibilities. If fortaleza glasses come true forget about having virtual hands in your gaming world...

 

[french toast]

I am dissapointed in going only from 20 to 25 joints processed. Not fingers tracking reduces a lot its interactive possibilities. If fortaleza glasses come true forget about having virtual hands in your gaming world...

As you can see colour resolution has increased massively. .depth resolution has improved quite alot..perhaps not as much as it could have....but maybe more is not going to offer much of an improvement? Afterall scientists in robotics and other areas use off the shelf kinect for their various projects...and it seems to work well enough?..
It can now track 6 players...3x more..nothing to sniff at....it can track at a distance from just 0.5m all the way up to 4.5m....a modest but decent improvement... (not forgetting you can but lenses for kinect v1 that already improve this)


It can track an extra 5 points of your body. ..but as you point out not each finger which is dissapointing...however if you look at the diagram the 5 extra points are really crucial..including one for the thumb and one for the finger tips...to go along with wrist and hand points. ...quite alot of information to be able to do some funky stuff.

Besides we all know that original kinect was pretty decent in this area, the main prblem with kinect was the terrible lag..which hampered any core games being built for it and put off serious developers from using it..not to mention kinect wasnt guarenteed to be in every box.
Thos lag was attributed to lack of bandwidth over usb and no dedicated processing...durango will have usb3 and a solution to the latency....all in all we can be sure kinect will be utilised much more effectively in games.

 

[MBDF]

I hope Sony requires mandatory installs for games as well. Seems like it would benefit streaming.

 

[Averagejoe]

Wow, just because Microsoft does it, now it's a bad thing? Mandatory installs are the best thing that could happen for consoles as long as there's also a way to instantly start playing a game.

I think you're the first and only person I've ever run into that thought that was a bad idea.



Ah, I get it now. You have to keep changing the goal posts if something doesn't fit into your view that the Playstation is perfect.

YOU were the one that made the claim that it will be able to run just most of todays apps.



The only way Sony runs "most of today's apps" is through their Android based phones. Otherwise they are quite far behind even Microsoft (Microsoft app store). What Vita has is very paltry compared to Apple, Google, and even Microsoft's app store.

Hence, unless it's running Android or as I also said, developer's are willing to recompile their apps to run on Orbis, Sony will need to include Android to meet your own claim.

I never once said Apps won't run on Orbis. The contention is that it would run "most of today's apps."

Regards,
SB

Is not that is bad is that any single thing that make durango look bad people like you also want to quickly tied it to Orbis,this go alone side the whole secret sauce that has turn out to be nothing.

Install don't bother me i already told you,but there is a big segment of the 360 user base who don't like installs,it has been evident since sony announce that some games need to be install,in fact when MS reveal that you could install games also on 360 one of the most celebrated things was that it was an option not mandatory.

In fact MS even mock sony on GTA4 and release and article of the thing you could do on 360 GTA while the PS3 version was installing.

When i mean most of today's app i mean facebook,twitter,hulu and some of the most know,not every single app on Android,fact is there is nothing on Android or ios that the PS4 can't run,other than been limited by now having a touch screen.

Bringing Android and ios is silly because not even MS is close to those markets in apps,MS is basically playing catch up.

So no i did not change the goal post.

I don't think MS will mix a store with free apps,with xbox live ecosystem of charge for everything,there are games on the free market that could go as high $15 on xbox live.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

View attachment 521 As you can see colour resolution has increased massively.

That can also be used with depth. The skeleton tracking will find the hand placement, and image analysis can track the fingers. I wouldn't discount finger tracking just yet.

 

[Averagejoe]

If you choose the optical drive, a game can never depend on the extra bandwidth, and shorter seek times available from the HD.
For streaming games it would be particularly crippling.

Does it have to be mandatory for next generation to take take full advantage of the hardware or partial installs like on PS3 would be enough.?

 

[french toast]

That can also be used with depth. The skeleton tracking will find the hand placement, and image analysis can track the fingers. I wouldn't discount finger tracking just yet.

Mmm plenty enough scope there for some funky algorithms.

 

[dumbo11]

It can now track 6 players...3x more..nothing to sniff at....it can track at a distance from just 0.5m all the way up to 4.5m....a modest but decent improvement... (not forgetting you can but lenses for kinect v1 that already improve this)

Yep - although AFAIK the number of players/joints will be a software change, not hardware. The prime-sense chip only calculates a depth image of the relevant scene, it's up to the console to work out what's in the picture.

It can track an extra 5 points of your body. ..but as you point out not each finger which is dissapointing...however if you look at the diagram the 5 extra points are really crucial..including one for the thumb and one for the finger tips...to go along with wrist and hand points. ...quite alot of information to be able to do some funky stuff

I'm not entirely sure that tracking fingers is a particularly useful idea without glasses... and if you're using glasses then maybe it makes sense to put some form of camera inside the glasses?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Mmm plenty enough scope there for some funky algorithms.

Yeah. Not as good as full 3D tracking due to contrast issue, but I expect games requiring finger tracking will be able to get enough.

The prime-sense chip only calculates a depth image of the relevant scene, it's up to the console to work out what's in the picture.

Prime-Sense provide a software solution that was available as a chip IIRC, but MS chose not to go that route with XB360. There may be a processor on Kinect 2 or not for all we know, although the OS requirements suggest to me all processing is done on console and Kinect will just provide video streams.

I'm not entirely sure that tracking fingers is a particularly useful idea without glasses... and if you're using glasses then maybe it makes sense to put some form of camera inside the glasses?

Finger tracking needn't be absolute. It's mostly a matter of recognising hand shapes, like a grab or open hand. That's enough to read intention and the game respond accordingly (handshake or punch?).

 

[Love_In_Rio]

That can also be used with depth. The skeleton tracking will find the hand placement, and image analysis can track the fingers. I wouldn't discount finger tracking just yet.

Anyway for the UI what they wanted to ensure i assume is opening and closing applications opening and closing your hand and for that tracking your thumb and tip of hand will be enough.

 

[french toast]

Yeah. Not as good as full 3D tracking due to contrast issue, but I expect games requiring finger tracking will be able to get enough.
Prime-Sense provide a software solution that was available as a chip IIRC, but MS chose not to go that route with XB360. There may be a processor on Kinect 2 or not for all we know, although the OS requirements suggest to me all processing is done on console and Kinect will just provide video streams.

Finger tracking needn't be absolute. It's mostly a matter of recognising hand shapes, like a grab or open hand. That's enough to read intention and the game respond accordingly (handshake or punch?).

Oh I forgot kinect 2 also has IR tracking.. @ 512 × 424 resolution. ..not entirely sure whst advantage this would provide...

 

[Love_In_Rio]

Mmm plenty enough scope there for some funky algorithms.

I think they use a neural network based algorithm for tracking joints. Mega training of the network could be made when users start effectively playing with Kinect 2 if the system is ready for it.

 

[french toast]

Yep - although AFAIK the number of players/joints will be a software change, not hardware. The prime-sense chip only calculates a depth image of the relevant scene, it's up to the console to work out what's in the picture.



I'm not entirely sure that tracking fingers is a particularly useful idea without glasses... and if you're using glasses then maybe it makes sense to put some form of camera inside the glasses?

Yea its really the software that the special sauce with kinect...the better inputs we can have the better. ..IR tracking anyone?

Yea perhaps glasses will be the next step...wouldnt be suprised if sony countered with a concept like this..full virtual world. ...that would be amazing, and a proper reposte to Microsofts mid life kicker illumiroom.

 

[Love_In_Rio]

Oh I forgot kinect 2 also has IR tracking.. @ 512 × 424 resolution. ..not entirely sure whst advantage this would provide...

IR sensor in robotics is used to measure distance. Maybe you could say a person is 1,80 metres long only if your rgb map is 'x' metres long and is to a 'y' distance.