Theres always 24 if its on both sides. ;-)
Middle Generation Console Upgrade Discussion [Scorpio, 4Pro]
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Theres always 24 if its on both sides. ;-)
24GB confirmed? OK sounds good to me and glad everyone else is in agreement as well.
4-8GB for OS and 16-20GB for games. Simple
But seriously how much would 24GB of GDDR5 cost next year? If Sony put 8GB in a $399 console in 2013 would 24GB be possible in a $499 2017 console?
Also I'm not taking the renders in that video as 100% accurate. Microsoft just wanted to show something in that pr video. It could have 8 on both sides to give 16GB.
4-8GB for OS and 16-20GB for games. Simple
But seriously how much would 24GB of GDDR5 cost next year? If Sony put 8GB in a $399 console in 2013 would 24GB be possible in a $499 2017 console?
Also I'm not taking the renders in that video as 100% accurate. Microsoft just wanted to show something in that pr video. It could have 8 on both sides to give 16GB.
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Depends on the benefit. As McCorbo writes: they're going ot balance the CPU around the GPU around the memory. Anything extra outside of that is costs on the consumer and on MS. They're going to try to bare bones make target. It's unlikely jumping memory > 12GB is going to make a huge difference across all games. Some perhaps, but I'm not sure if all. There are other ways to get performance without having to go the brute force method.
If the goal is Native 4K just for marketing sake, then those titles will be put at a disadvantage in the fidelity category compared to games that are willing to walk the checkerboard route.
that sounds like a good plan on paper, to save budget on the CPU side, but what about CPU limited games? Plus I think AI along with VR/AR and raytracing, is the future, and AI still works better on CPUs
12GB Total would probably mean 8GB for games. Which is I am arguing 16GB would be much better.
PS4 and Xbox One reserve what like 3.5GB of memory for OS? That OS memory requirement could easily go up on Scorpio...hasn't there been complaints that the Xbox One dashboard is sluggish as it is? not saying it's memory related but who knows. 16GB of total memory could easy be used up with 4GB-5GB for OS functions and 11-12GB for games.
Remember this thing is coming out at the END of 2017. That means it has to attempt to push 4k or close to it through 2018, 2019, 2020...even 2021.
Most video cards have 8GB now. I think having 11-12GB available for games will be standard from 2018-2020.
24GB would cost a lot. Suppose they do have the cost target to allow it, there has to be a better place to spend that money.
If launch PS4 was $90 for 8GB, a wild guess would be that 8GB is easily $45 today. But this time it's a higher bin, the Pro and Scorpio memory would cost more. PS4 is now using the lowest bin, the one nobody else wants.
Another caveat is that clamshell requires to either drop the speed or take an even more expensive bin. So 24GB could end up above $150. Add this to the large chip and high TDP causing an exponentially higher cost for the SoC and cooling, this would make it a ridiculous BOM for a console (but nowhere near the launch PS3 with it's trifecta of blue laser production issues, abysmal cell yield, and overkill enclosure).
With the volume they need I doubt they can contract anything higher than middle bins. GPUs are using the top bins and someone somewhere needs to buy the millions and millions of chips below 8 gbps. Pro and Scorpio specs are the middle bins. I don't think that can change unless a new node happens just in time for scorpio. Memory speed bins seem to bump up only at node jumps.
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I don't see 24GB as impossible, just improbable.
If launch PS4 was $90 for 8GB, a wild guess would be that 8GB is easily $45 today. But this time it's a higher bin, the Pro and Scorpio memory would cost more. PS4 is now using the lowest bin, the one nobody else wants.
Another caveat is that clamshell requires to either drop the speed or take an even more expensive bin. So 24GB could end up above $150. Add this to the large chip and high TDP causing an exponentially higher cost for the SoC and cooling, this would make it a ridiculous BOM for a console (but nowhere near the launch PS3 with it's trifecta of blue laser production issues, abysmal cell yield, and overkill enclosure).
With the volume they need I doubt they can contract anything higher than middle bins. GPUs are using the top bins and someone somewhere needs to buy the millions and millions of chips below 8 gbps. Pro and Scorpio specs are the middle bins. I don't think that can change unless a new node happens just in time for scorpio. Memory speed bins seem to bump up only at node jumps.
TL;DR
I don't see 24GB as impossible, just improbable.
Yep, going by the figures it looks like MS might actually be going for a slightly slower bin than Sony. Or they're at least giving themselves that option. Clamshell might no be such a problem at the speeds they're targetting, but I don't think they'll do it because the cost will be too high.
As for TDP, I think MS will go wider than Polaris 10 and PS4P, and trade die area off against avoiding the horrible vertical tail of the power curve. If they're using GF I suppose they'll pretty much have to ....
We don't know a lot of the specifics about the technical details of PS4P but it was rumored that an extra 512MB would be available for developers. Which if I am right that would be 5.5GB available to developers. Double that and you have 11GB...so if anything 16GB would probably give Scorpio two times the memory...or a little more...for games.
One potential issue there might be is in how you reached 16 GB. In addition to the extra cost of memory, it requires either changing the memory bus to be 256-bit or 512-bit, or have a lopsided configuration where some memory channels have more ram on them.
256-bit would require GDDR5X, 512-bit would require a larger board and more power, and I'm not sure that unbalanced memory is either possible on AMD or desirable from a development perspective (none uniform access across channels).
GDDR5X seems cool - and certainly nvidia are preferring it to wider buses - but I wonder if its long term prospects for stability in the market are seen as riskier. If in 3 (or 4) years time nvidia and AMD have moved onto GDDR6 and low cost HBM, would MS want to be left being the only customer for GDDR5X?
GDDR5 is likely to be greatly in demand for many years to come.
I dunno..I just think if Microsoft is basically quadrupling the GPU over Xbox One it should at least double the memory as well.
I don't care what Sony did with PS4P. Microsoft needs to brute force a hardware win over Sony and subsequently giving me a ridiculously powered console for $499.
16GB or bust.
I don't care what Sony did with PS4P. Microsoft needs to brute force a hardware win over Sony and subsequently giving me a ridiculously powered console for $499.
16GB or bust.
Might be the same bin (7Gbps)?
218GB/s on 256-bit bus -> 6.8GT/s
320GB/s on 384-bitches bus -> 6.67GT/s
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Hynix has 3 parts at the moment,
R4C (4GHz) - 8Gbps - 1.55V
R0C (3GHz) - 7/6Gbps - 1.5V/1.35V
T2C (2.5GHz) - 6/5Gbps - 1.5/1.35V
Presumably, the 1.5V there are overvolted/clocked. For whatever reason, they don't list the R2C in the catalogue, but either way, the above bandwidths are in the R0C bin.
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The thing about Scorpio that puzzles me is this: what is the point of a console that does 6TFlops, is going to cost a large wad of cash (unless MS are so desperate to prove the 360 wasn't a fluke they're willing to take a massive hit on subsidising it) with a library of games that will, most likely, be available on a PC that is similar if not better spec for less money?
For the 5 trillionth time. Some people (60 million+) actually prefer consoles over pc's for gaming.
Which is true, but irrelevant, to my puzzlement.
As Sony and many more manufacturers have previously shown, not a lot like console gaming at more than ~$300. So what's the point in going so overboard on something that is probably going to be too expensive for market appetite to have much uptake? I mean I like console gaming over PC, simply because of the ease of use and the exclusives (something that MS doesn't really seem to believe in any more) but at anything more significantly priced than the current generation is I'd seriously consider the options. It just puzzles me is all. It's not like I can't see the point in an OP console, I just don't see how they are going to create the market for it unless they're desperate enough to take a massive hit on cost.
Well I think a lot of people are OK with console gaming at $400 and under. I think Sony has nailed it with that price point.
Personally I'm OK with $500 and under so long as all the cost is going towards internal specs and not something external like Kinect
but ps4p will be using ps4 assets, Scorpio the plan seems to be using higher quality pc assets
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