Microsoft announces external HD-DVD drive for Xbox 360

[ihamoitc2005]

Price

There is evidence. The HD-DVD players are 1/2 the price of the BR players. That's actually something real we can base opinions on.

One Blu-ray drive is almost 1/2 price of other Blu-ray drive. So do you say one is almost 1/2 price of other for manufacture? Is $13,000 DVD player much more expensive for manufacture than $30 DVD player? I am sorry my friend but I feel you have misunderstood pricing decisions by manufacturers.

Actual drive hardware for Blu-ray and HD-DVD is not so different. This is simple scientific fact. Both drives have same performance requirement and have same basic technology so biggest cost factor (high tolerance) is probably also same.

For new product, price is usually high because early adopter pays alot and is good opportunity for "free money" so $500 HD-DVD price is surprising. Only way to understand $500 price is it is attempt to get marketshare before PS3 release when Blu-ray will have 100,000+ sales/month.

 

[Hardknock]

Jesus why do people care why HD-DVD players are cheaper??? Either they are cheaper to manufacture or Blu-Ray manufacturers are trying to gouge customers. Take your pick

 

[cthellis42]

Sure and that's a rather rosy scenario for Blu-Ray isn't it?

It would be. And it could also backfire if their assumptions are misplaced and they give HD-DVD too MUCH ground before they drop their prices to compete that way.

It could just as easily be a major price advantage, that extends well throughout next year. Maybe they don't overcome it so quickly?

Exactly. But since we've seen no MOVEMENT from anyone yet, and know without doubt that either side could launch at $1000 and feed off the frenzied early adopters, we can make reasonable assumptions regarding the "why"s of the initial pricing choices.

It's all speculation, that's why I took issue with his statements. It's fine to speculate, just don't try and post your own theories as if they are fact.

...haven't we all gone past this by now? We are all PEOPLE. All our comments are OPINIONS. Even things we mention as FACTS can be misremembered, misunderstood, or based off faulty sources.

And just what do you think someone's comment is BUT opinion when they preface it with "seems obvious?"

One can certainly argue the extent (as we're doing) and the supporting logic (as we're also doing), but let's try to stop making silly assumptions ABOUT others' assumptions.

 

[Sis]

Jesus why do people care why HD-DVD players are cheaper??? Either they are cheaper to manufacture or Blu-Ray manufacturers are trying to gouge customers. Take your pick

Because it's central to an agrument that HD-DVD players will come down in price faster than Blu-ray players.

.Sis

 

[Sovere]

Neither I'll go with option C. HD-DVD is attempting to flood the makret with a lower price and try to recoup R&D through volume sales rather than the profit marings on the HD-DVD players.

 

[cthellis42]

Jesus why do people care why HD-DVD players are cheaper??? Either they are cheaper to manufacture or Blu-Ray manufacturers are trying to gouge customers. Take your pick

ALL manufacturers try to gouge you when they can. Which is where comments like "trading gouging for sales" stem from. Hehe...

 

[ihamoitc2005]

Doing a google search the only price advantage I see from HD-DVD are the manufacturing of discs. Even then most articles claim that price advantage while only last for so long. So down the line that price advantage will be null. Or nil for the objective-C folks.

Early price advantage for HD-DVD is because HD-DVD master equipment is just upgrade of DVD master equipment already owned but Blu-ray master equipment must be bought as new product. But, Blu-ray master equipment is much smaller and more simple so long term cost of Blu-ray disc is same or less than DVD. Because of very small early cost, HD-DVD production maybe is even slightly less cost than normal DVD (but more consumer price) so this is why some companies like HD-DVD.

 

[ihamoitc2005]

Gauge

Jesus why do people care why HD-DVD players are cheaper??? Either they are cheaper to manufacture or Blu-Ray manufacturers are trying to gouge customers. Take your pick

Blu-ray makes are trying to "gauge" customers because early-adopter is not so smart and pays too much for everything (or has too much money and doesnt care about cost). Even today some people pay $13,000 for DVD player!

 

[drpepper]

Blu-ray makes are trying to "gauge" customers because early-adopter is not so smart and pays too much for everything (or has too much money and doesnt care about cost). Even today some people pay $13,000 for DVD player!

For that price it better keep my beer cold and apartment warm.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Drpepper, in case you haven't notice NOBODY KNOWS the opu prices for BR or HD-DVD.

All I know is this:

- The initial HD-DVD drives are $500-$1000 cheaper than BR
- AmirmM from avsforums, a well know honest MS employee and forum poster, stated that the prices another member posted ($450 BR OPU, ~$100 HD-DVD OPU) were closer to reality than people were thinking.
- the cheapest at the time of those postings was Phillips OPU81, internal drives using this were supposd to be $450 MSRP but never went on sale
http://www.philips.at/about/news/press/article-14250.html
http://www.audioholics.com/ces/CEStechnology/PhilipsAllinOneOPU81BlurayDisc.php

You know, we don't have much to go on here, so all we can do is piece this stuff together, but there seems to be some compelling evidence TO ME that there is a signifigant price difference here.

AmirM is not some 'friend' on a forum, he's an insider, with MS, and though biased for HD-DVD, i don't think anyone would accuse him of lying.

As I understand it, HD-DVD's OPU can be created from an existing DVD opu($50), and adding a blu laser, so it shouldn't be fairly inexpensive. However, that's unconfirmed, so if anyone has more details on the validity of that process, please weigh in.

So, I've made my case as to why I think BR OPU truly is expensive to manufacture.

Now, I expect too see your arguments of why you think the OPU's are equal price. And it has to be something more than just your own common sense.

 

[Magnum PI]

Based on a post by AmirM at avsforums, head of windows media group or something liek that, he confirmed that if looking for a quote on the OPU's you get #'s like that. He's a active part of the forum, and has alot of credibility as a good honest guy. No reason to believe he's lying.
?

He appears more like a very vocal HD-DVD proponent with no more credibility than you or me.

Nothing more solid ?

 

[cthellis42]

Because it's central to an agrument that HD-DVD players will come down in price faster than Blu-ray players.

In many ways, I think the PS3 will have more to do with lowering BR player prices than HD-DVD competition. Just when will it launch, for how much, and what kind of volumes will it kick out? Competitors can bounce their individual advantages off each other to prove who can sustain certain price points and why, but just how does the same player compete against another of the SAME PLAYER, which also has a kickass game machine underneath it?

I think when the PS3 starts rolling out, we'll likely see straight-up standalone players sink to around its' price, and the emphasis for more expensive players be on recording. (Which will start with this tech much earlier than it did with DVD.)

Unless there's going to be some huge difference between BR in the PS3 and other capable BR drives for movie playing, but... I can't see how it would for first-generation releases. (Nor in what fashion the differences will take, as they're not as apparent as with DVD in the PS2.)

 

[BTOA]

Early price advantage for HD-DVD is because HD-DVD master equipment is just upgrade of DVD master equipment already owned but Blu-ray master equipment must be bought as new product. But, Blu-ray master equipment is much smaller and more simple so long term cost of Blu-ray disc is same or less than DVD. Because of very small early cost, HD-DVD production maybe is even slightly less cost than normal DVD (but more consumer price) so this is why some companies like HD-DVD.

You hit the spot, really.

Protection layer BluRay=0.1mm HD-DVD=0.6mm

Making the transition shift to HD-DVD easier, because of the protective layer is similar to dvd, while BluRay is alot smaller.

BTW,

Disc Structure

When we take a look to the specifications above, we immediately see that the capacity is a most important difference. Blu-ray offers a significantly higher storage capacity. The reason for this is the disc itself: while HD-DVD uses a similar disc to the DVD (0.6 mm disc with 0.6 mm protective coating), Blu-ray steps away from the DVD norm and uses a 1.1 mm disc with a protective layer of only 0.1 mm. The recording layer is therefore very close to the surface of the disc. The advantage is that the laser has less material to read through, which allows a higher NA, a lower track pitch, a smaller pit length and therefore more storage compared to HD-DVD.

http://www.cdfreaks.com/article/186/2

 

[drpepper]

He appears more like a very vocal HD-DVD proponent with no more credibility than you or me.

Nothing more solid ?

I agree. Truthfullness doesn't lead to honesty. You can be "truthfull" and still withhold information. Give us a more credible source. It's like asking Guy Kawasaki if Apple computers are better than PCs. Come on!

 

[Mmmkay]

Drpepper, in case you haven't notice NOBODY KNOWS the opu prices for BR or HD-DVD.

All I know is this:

- The initial HD-DVD drives are $500-$1000 cheaper than BR
- AmirmM from avsforums, a well know honest MS employee and forum poster, stated that the prices another member posted ($450 BR OPU, ~$100 HD-DVD OPU) were closer to reality than people were thinking.
- the cheapest at the time of those postings was Phillips OPU81, internal drives using this were supposd to be $450 MSRP but never went on sale
http://www.philips.at/about/news/press/article-14250.html
http://www.audioholics.com/ces/CEStechnology/PhilipsAllinOneOPU81BlurayDisc.php

So Amir didn't actually provide the numbers, just vaguely indicated that they are somewhere in the right ballpark (still waiting that post link), and then you provide a link suggesting that the $450 is in fact the cost of the drive not OPU. Well that's just spiffy!

 

[scooby_dooby]

In many ways, I think the PS3 will have more to do with lowering BR player prices than HD-DVD competition. Just when will it launch, for how much, and what kind of volumes will it kick out? Competitors can bounce their individual advantages off each other to prove who can sustain certain price points and why, but just how does the same player compete against another of the SAME PLAYER, which also has a kickass game machine underneath it?

It depends how quickly HD-DVD drops, by the time PS3 hits US HD-DVD will be already be in the market for probably 6-8months (march - oct/nov), and there should be cheaper chinese models going for sale, if HD-DVD can get down to $300 or so it will already have established a strong foothold. If BR comes trickling down 12 months later, it will be too late.

Howerver, if HD-DVD doesn't drop, and BR catches up, then BR for the win probably.

It will also be interesting to see how studio support shifts if HD-DVD sales start outpacing next year, and media starts selling.

 

[ihamoitc2005]

$13,000

For that price it better keep my beer cold and apartment warm.

If I have $13,000 for DVD player my girl-friend will want a ring! So i buy cheap DVD player from Wal-mart because she will not like $75 ring.

 

[Bigus Dickus]

There are either two scenarios in the very end:

1.) Blu-Ray wins and HD-DVD looses
2.) HD-DVD wins abd Blu-Ray looses

While I agree, I think it's worth highlighting the timeframe involved for a statement about "the very end." When looking at VHS/Betamax and DVD-A/SACD as examples (the latter still a continuing format war, with no end in sight), the historical timeframe has been on the order of years before one competitor loses. "In the very end" might well be some 5 years down the road. Hopefully much much sooner, whoever the victor may be... but we can only hope.

 

[drpepper]

If I have $13,000 for DVD player my girl-friend will want a ring! So i buy cheap DVD player from Wal-mart because she will not like $75 ring.

LOL, I was thinking along those lines too.

 

[cthellis42]

I put very little stock in comments that the BR OPU would by anything near $450. Not for any production model, certainly. Sony's willing to subsidize the PS3, but sink HIDEOUS sums into it? ...or do you think they'd seriously contemplate shooting a $700 base console out there to go the way of notable success 3DO?

Other good points have been raised, though, and I'd actually give them move weight than player material costs. It is undenyable that there is less cost in getting publishers to move some lines to HD-DVD (though I personally wonder just how many are willing to drop DVD production to support either of the new generation disks right now as opposed to adding fresh lines from scratch while continuing to lean just as heavy on their money maker, and to what extent they are) and produce disks right now, so much of a drop in player price is to get more players out there and cheaper disks out there to get the content support for the medium ahead as much as possible, as quickly as possible.

The thing Phil WAS talking about.