*merged/spinoff* for the Neverending Killzone Discussion on Graphics

[ultragpu]

I don't see how MLAA can ever deliver better IQ than 4xMSAA. In certain frames it may have less aliasing, but the overall image quality is always worse, especially in motion.

GOW3 says hi, the game pretty much moves at 45 bullshots per frame.

 

[AbbA]

I don't see how MLAA can ever deliver better IQ than 4xMSAA. In certain frames it may have less aliasing, but the overall image quality is always worse, especially in motion.

In Gow3 your stantment isn't true.

 

[NotTarts]

GOW3 says hi, the game pretty much moves at 45 bullshots per frame.

?

Great IQ, but not bullshot (supersampled) level, really.

 

[ct03]

?

Great IQ, but not bullshot (supersampled) level, really.

There is tons of aliasing in the background and smaller geometry, and all textures get blurred because the algorithm can't properly differentiate between gemoetry edges and high frequency texture detail.

 

[ct03]

Some of the love GOW3 is getting may stem from the cutscenes. But they are pre-rendered and not indicative of the actual gameplay IQ.

 

[ultragpu]

OK chill people, I said "pretty much" not literally. But there are plenty of examples where one could easily mistaken it as a bullshot like this one here.

Yes, the texture does get blurred only very slightly, but I can't see 4xmsaa does a better job here.

 

[Toaddio]

How many games this generation are 720p & 4xMSAA?

 

[N_B]

I haven't played the game, but according to numerous sources it's 35GB and around 8 hours long. Unless it's littered with 4K textures, it must feature a considerable amount of in-engine pre-rendered FMV to consume this much space.

Likely sound, PAL version with extra languages is 5GB more. And if it did feature in-engine pre-rendered cinematics their IQ wouldn't be terribly far from the actual game

How many games this generation are 720p & 4xMSAA?

Plenty on 360 but very few have MSAA consistently visible on every edge. In most games MSAA breaks down a lot.

 

[assurdum]

There is tons of aliasing in the background and smaller geometry, and all textures get blurred because the algorithm can't properly differentiate between gemoetry edges and high frequency texture detail.

Wat? Did you have seen at least the picture? There isn't a single aliasing edge even in the long distance... MLAA has a lot of flaws, sure, but properly use it's really an outstanding AA filter...

 

[ct03]

Likely sound, PAL version with extra languages is 5GB more. And if it did feature in-engine pre-rendered cinematics their IQ wouldn't be terribly far from the actual game

The developer stated that part of the cutscenes are in-engine pre-rendered (i.e. no external CG). But you can render with higher detail base geometry, add effects on top and supersample to kill aliasing.

Of course, even realtime cutscenes are generally forgiving when it comes to anti aliasing. They often contain closeups and shallow depth of field (i.e. little background detail), so aliasing is less of a problem than during gameplay.

 

[ct03]

Wat? Did you have seen at least the picture? There isn't a single aliasing edge even in the long distance...

Look at those tile joints. See how erratic the shading is? They will flicker like crazy when the camera moves.

 

[KKRT]

and all textures get blurred because the algorithm can't properly differentiate between gemoetry edges and high frequency texture detail.

This again? Did You even play any PS3 game with MLAA support? LBP 2, GoW 3, KZ 3 are nothing like blurred and have really sharp textures.

Some of the love GOW3 is getting may stem from the cutscenes. But they are pre-rendered and not indicative of the actual gameplay IQ.

Not prerendered but, pre-recorded. All scenes all done on PS3 without any touch-ups, they use video files because of memory issues and hiding loadings.

And about thin geometry problem in GoW 3, did You even played it? There are maybe 2-3! scenes where MLAA breaks down, the rest game IQ is flawless and really beyond every 4x MSAA game.
Here are direct feeds - http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1486645&postcount=707

 

[ct03]

And about thin geometry problem in GoW 3, did You even played it? There are maybe 2-3! scenes where MLAA breaks down, the rest game IQ is flawless and really beyond every 4x MSAA game.

I'm sorry for not realizing that the game has flawless IQ beyond every 4x MSAA game. How silly of me. Please accept my apology as I move elsewhere. Probably to the tech forums, where I have never seen you post.

 

[nightshade]

Look at those tile joints. See how erratic the shading is? They will flicker like crazy when the camera moves.

Well actually, they don't.
In any case why are we even discussing GOW3 here ?

 

[Nesh]

The developer stated that part of the cutscenes are in-engine pre-rendered (i.e. no external CG). But you can render with higher detail base geometry, add effects on top and supersample to kill aliasing.

Of course, even realtime cutscenes are generally forgiving when it comes to anti aliasing. They often contain closeups and shallow depth of field (i.e. little background detail), so aliasing is less of a problem than during gameplay.

The developer also stated that the majority o fthe cut scenes with an exception of few are real time.

 

[Trejser]

Here are direct feeds - http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1486645&postcount=707

Amazing IQ

http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/gow3_mlaa/10.jpg
http://strony.aster.pl/kakarotto/gow3_mlaa/4.jpg

Awesome thing about MLAA is that it works well with HDR, that's why it should be used in Uncharted 3

 

[assurdum]

Look at those tile joints. See how erratic the shading is? They will flicker like crazy when the camera moves.

Early you talking of jaggies, now of flicker personally, I have the game but I haven't noticed a single flicker in the texture, really. MLAA surely isn't stable how the MSAA, but it's the best alternative on the ps3 & I think its use could improved with the time (I'm pretty interested to see the NVIDIA solution for the subpixel problem). KZ3 demo sp for example appear a little less shimmer compared to gow 3 in the slow camera motion. Yes, shimmering it's there but I'm surprised to see a little improvement with so much 'shaking' slow camera motion in the fp view. I think the only great error of guerrilla here, it's to maintain the 'convulse' perspective camera of the preview chapter, when you don't move the character. Here, the worst MLAA scenario become a 'reality' too evident, I ignore why not have 'lock' the camera shaking at least when we are settled.

 

[Lucid_Dreamer]

I'm sorry for not realizing that the game has flawless IQ beyond every 4x MSAA game. How silly of me. Please accept my apology as I move elsewhere. Probably to the tech forums, where I have never seen you post.

You are working off of misinformation. GoW3's cutscenes are mostly real time, which you didn't seem to know. GoW3's AA is not flawless, but it's the best AA IQ example on consoles. And, as N_B said, MSAA isn't flawless either. It breaks down as well. In other words, you should keep that in mind, while in the tech forums.

 

[L. Scofield]

How is this Killzone 3 vs Crysis 2 crap still going on? Yes, 1280x720 plus MLAA looks better than 1152x720 with edge detect and temporal AA, but how does that negate that MLAA still has some issues, or drawbacks?

Some people got really defensive the moment I mentioned the drawbacks and brought it into the mix. Stop derailing the thread people

As ct03 pointed out about NoTarts GoW3 image, small geometry does produce plenty of jaggies. There's the evidence. Posting another one with only foreground big objects does not erase it

 

[KKRT]

Awesome thing about MLAA is that it works well with HDR, that's why it should be used in Uncharted 3

It is.