Killzone 2 pre-release discussion thread

[deepbrown]

I don't think the "lag" is a technical problem. I think it's just the implementation of the controls. Aim mode seems to suffer the worst for it, but there is definitely a lack of sensitivity to very fine movements of the right analog stick. When you have the game sensitivity set very high you easily over steer or overcompensate for the lack of responsiveness to fine gestures. People can say its "weight" all they want, as if it's some realistic portrayal of physics, but it's not. If you've ever fired a gun you'll know that pushing on a stick is nothing like holding a gun and can't realistically reproduce the motions of aiming, tracking or switching targets with an analog stick. I'm sorry, but this supposed pursuit of realism is just a bad design choice. It doesn't feel good and it doesn't respond well. I'm sure a lot of people will like it (no idea why) and other will adjust to it, but if they went with a more generic approach pretty much everyone would be happy right away. It isn't so bad that I can't play the game. In fact, the demo is incredibly easy, but when I touched the controls I immediately felt as if something was "wrong" and I think that's worth highlighting to a lot of people. There are a lot of people complaining, maybe still a minority, but I don't think its an issue of their tvs. And trying to write off people that don't like the controls as Halo3 or CoD players is petty. There's no reason to get so defensive about Killzone2. For one thing, it isn't an insult to have liked or played either of those games. I liked one and not the other, but I'd say they both feel a lot better than Killzone2.

It is, if the video provided as proof is true. I don't experience ANY of those problems. If people don't like the weight, that's fine. But to show a video that shows firing occoring quite a while after the button is pressed - and saying this is a problem with the "weight" then you're wrong.

The controls are responsive and accurate once you get used to them. Honestly, it is a joy to play. Even the Edge review that gave the game it's lowest score, said the controls are tight. TTP and myself and other people with the retail game, do not have these problems. In fact noone I've spoken to that has the full game, has not experienced it either.

 

[deepbrown]

Been playing the full game all day today and it's an outstanding technical showcase, but I too am having issues with the gameplay. It's just too one-note. It's full-on blasting with zero let-up and has some pretty bad pacing issues. Also the cover system rarely seems to get you to actual safety and it's almost impossible to figure out where you're being shot from in many instances, making the whole experience somewhat bewildering in the heat of battle.

Incredible graphics, some very cool AI, but I really can see where Edge is coming from with its 7/10 score. As a single-player experience, it's all about going from set-piece to set-piece and doing exactly the same stuff in-between. I think it's a game that's going to live or die through its multiplayer.

Playing with 7.1?

Cover system is my favourite thing about the game. The gameplay has a lot of variety in it, from vehicles, to sniper levels etc etc. Very theatre of war with huge set pieces - can be overwhelming.

 

[the ignoramus]

I've not played the demo but it's the same as the multiplayer beta if memory serves.

How is the framerate? Steady 30 most of the time?


edit: Also there IS lag present. Zoom in with the default ISA rifle and try doing figure eights or small circles.

I like the controls, but people shouldnt have to deal with 1/5 a second of input lag.
If the game's MP is to be seriously competitive, the lag has got to be standardized or dealt with in some manner.

 

[Antan]

I cant recall any point s where the rate has dipped to be honest. Load stuttering aside i think GG can give themselves a rather large pat on the back.

 

[Cornsnake]

I visit several gaming forums and a lot of people are indeed complaining about the input lags.

I'm one of those that notice it too. People keep coming up with excuses that it must be because you play too much CoD4. Other excuses happens to be that it's a game design where weapons have weight. I honestly don't buy any of that bullcrap.

In fact KZ1 was also another one of their games that had weapon weight. You can certainly feel it. But there was no input lag what so ever in that game. Granted, the game was pretty bad with it's framerate problems but the whole point I'm trying to make is that's a game where we see weapon weight and no input lag.

If any of you have KZ1, I recommend testing it out and compare it to KZ2. Flick the sticks any push buttons fast. You'll see the difference.

In any case I think it's healthy that we are seeing a lot of complaints. Because GG have taken notice about it, and if were luck they'll release a patch to fix it. If not, then I can live with it.

Done. Killzone 1 only has that acceleration on it's left stick, where as Killzone 2 has it on both. Overall I prefer Killzone 2 controls. This input lag in the Killzone 2 demo I'm not noticing, only the acceleration on the sticks. The other buttons all respond instantly.

I think the problem some people have is simply the acceleration during the zoom. It seems to be most noticeable there. If they just tone'd it down a little it could make a lot of people happy, without losing the feel of the weapons.

 

[AlNom]

Games measured with lag: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3725/measuring_responsiveness_in_video_.php?page=3

Just out of curiosity, would any of you be able to compare your experience in Heavenly Sword and in Killzone 2 Their measured input lag for HS gets to be as bad as 300ms apparently.

 

[tha_con]

Been playing the full game all day today and it's an outstanding technical showcase, but I too am having issues with the gameplay. It's just too one-note. It's full-on blasting with zero let-up and has some pretty bad pacing issues. Also the cover system rarely seems to get you to actual safety and it's almost impossible to figure out where you're being shot from in many instances, making the whole experience somewhat bewildering in the heat of battle.

Incredible graphics, some very cool AI, but I really can see where Edge is coming from with its 7/10 score. As a single-player experience, it's all about going from set-piece to set-piece and doing exactly the same stuff in-between. I think it's a game that's going to live or die through its multiplayer.

Your post kind of set of a "light bulb" if you will.

I think a lot of the criticisms that are coming for KZ2 have more to do with individuals (or maybe gamers in general) simply getting burnt out on First Person Shooters.

I mean, I can imagine a journo plays dozens of FPS titles, and given the nature of the genre, it's got to get tiresome.

I don't think it's so much a problem with Killzone 2, as it is a problem that is inherent with the genre in particular. Even titles that attempt to deviate from the formula, like Mirrors Edge, still fall victim to the same set piece after set piece game design mentality.

 

[specwarGP2]

Deepbrown:

What exactly do you mean by weighty? To me that just means turning slower. As for lag it is present. You may not notice it or it may not be in the retail game but it is present in the demo. Frankly, the aiming model sucks. As Scott_arm mentioned earlier it is not like aiming a real weapon at all. If gg can issue a patch this game would be one of the best shooters around. People love cod because of the multi and that in part is largely because of the feel.

 

[deepbrown]

Deepbrown:

What exactly do you mean by weighty? To me that just means turning slower. As for lag it is present. You may not notice it or it may not be in the retail game but it is present in the demo. The aiming model implemented is not good at all. As Scott_arm mentioned earlier it is not like aiming a real weapon at all

I will test the demo and compare.

Weighty means that when you move it feels like you are a real person - rather than COD etc where you feel like a mosquito.

 

[Rebo]

I'm really dissapointed in the controlls. I have played through the demo 5 times now, and the input lagg + acceleration really kills it.

It does not feel "weighty", it feels laggy and unprecise. If they could fix the lagg+acceleration issue the game would be great, but I will not touch it again until they do.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Deepbrown:

What exactly do you mean by weighty? To me that just means turning slower. As for lag it is present. You may not notice it or it may not be in the retail game but it is present in the demo. Frankly, the aiming model sucks. As Scott_arm mentioned earlier it is not like aiming a real weapon at all. If gg can issue a patch this game would be one of the best shooters around. People love cod because of the multi and that in part is largely because of the feel.

To be fair, I don't think any video game on the market feels like aiming a real weapon at all, with the exception of those ones with the gun peripherals, of course, and excluding that weird gun add-on for the Wii, because you don't really aim down the barrel of the gun .... That kind of ran on.

 

[grandmaster]

Your post kind of set of a "light bulb" if you will.

I think a lot of the criticisms that are coming for KZ2 have more to do with individuals (or maybe gamers in general) simply getting burnt out on First Person Shooters.

I mean, I can imagine a journo plays dozens of FPS titles, and given the nature of the genre, it's got to get tiresome.

I don't think it's so much a problem with Killzone 2, as it is a problem that is inherent with the genre in particular. Even titles that attempt to deviate from the formula, like Mirrors Edge, still fall victim to the same set piece after set piece game design mentality.

Well it is a problem with Killzone 2 in that, as I said, the gameplay is very samey, certainly in the levels I have played so far. There is little actual ingenuity required in the tasks being asked of the player, and surprisingly few mechanics (short of the hackneyed old exploding barrels) that see the player using the destructible environments to take down the enemy. There are some great set-pieces of that ilk, mind you, but it's nowhere near the level of interaction you had in Criterion's Black for example. I think the point I'm trying to make is that the surprises this game has are all in the visuals, not in the stuff you actually do.

If the game is only six hours long as some have said I should have it finished by tomorrow and I'll be in a better position to comment more authoratively, but I do have a very strong suspicion that the game's ingenuity is all in the multiplayer mode based on what I played in the beta.

I cant recall any point s where the rate has dipped to be honest. Load stuttering aside i think GG can give themselves a rather large pat on the back.

Load stuttering is the most obvious, but this game can drop frames badly in certain areas. The motion blur works well in masking it, but it can't disguise the lowering of response in controls when the frame rate does drop. I'm capturing the whole experience of the single-player game from start to finish and will be producing a frame rate analysis in the next couple of days.

 

[Delta9]

I think the demo is amazing and beats all in graphics hands down,only game I can think that will be up to par or beat it will be Uncharted 2. Last demo I played this much was MGS2 because it was also amazing looking.

Just amazed how good it runs with these graphics

The controls are perfect I think and really makes twitch shooters feel like floaty turret.

Just amazed how good it runs with these graphics

 

[tha_con]

Well it is a problem with Killzone 2 in that, as I said, the gameplay is very samey, certainly in the levels I have played so far. There is little actual ingenuity required in the tasks being asked of the player, and surprisingly few mechanics (short of the hackneyed old exploding barrels) that see the player using the destructible environments to take down the enemy. There are some great set-pieces of that ilk, mind you, but it's nowhere near the level of interaction you had in Criterion's Black for example. I think the point I'm trying to make is that the surprises this game has are all in the visuals, not in the stuff you actually do.

If the game is only six hours long as some have said I should have it finished by tomorrow and I'll be in a better position to comment more authoratively, but I do have a very strong suspicion that the game's ingenuity is all in the multiplayer mode based on what I played in the beta.

I understand your view point, but I hardly think it's a problem with Killzone 2. If Killzone 2 is "samey" then you are talking more about the genre in general, and not about the game itself, this much is fact. You are saying it is the "same" as other shooters.

It's the genre and not the title. Honestly though, what would they refine? You blow things up and kill people, that is what you do in a First Person shooter.

I really see very little innovation in a destructable environment, especially when it hasn't shown to be particularly ground breaking (as seen in titles like Red Faction, Crysis, or Battlefield: Bad Company). Sure, it's interesting, and it's fun, but it does not 'redefine' the way we play shooters.

Asking Killzone 2 to be less of the "same" is more or less a confession that you are tired of the genre on a whole, and IMO, should certainly not be held against the merits of Killzone 2, or to a more broad scope, any first person shooter.

 

[specwarGP2]

I will test the demo and compare.

Weighty means that when you move it feels like you are a real person - rather than COD etc where you feel like a mosquito.

Right I understand that but how is that feel conveyed? When you move the right analog From point a to point b how is that movement from conveyed on screen on kz2? My experience is that there is a brief delay before I see any motion then some acceleration then movement after the analog has stopped moving. This is the lag everone is talking about. It isn't representative of how aiming a real weapon is like at all.

 

[Delta9]

I understand your view point, but I hardly think it's a problem with Killzone 2. If Killzone 2 is "samey" then you are talking more about the genre in general, and not about the game itself, this much is fact. You are saying it is the "same" as other shooters.

It's the genre and not the title. Honestly though, what would they refine? You blow things up and kill people, that is what you do in a First Person shooter.

I really see very little innovation in a destructable environment, especially when it hasn't shown to be particularly ground breaking (as seen in titles like Red Faction, Crysis, or Battlefield: Bad Company). Sure, it's interesting, and it's fun, but it does not 'redefine' the way we play shooters.

Asking Killzone 2 to be less of the "same" is more or less a confession that you are tired of the genre on a whole, and IMO, should certainly not be held against the merits of Killzone 2, or to a more broad scope, any first person shooter.

Totally agree.

 

[LordNerevar]

I think the demo is amazing and beats all in graphics hands down,only game I can think that will be up to par or beat it will be Uncharted 2. Last demo I played this much was MGS2 because it was also amazing looking.

Just amazed how good it runs with these graphics

The controls are perfect I think and really makes twitch shooters feel like floaty turret.

Just amazed how good it runs with these graphics


The Edge review is terrible and it shows as they gave it the lowest yet.

Belive me, you haven't seen anything. After you play some of the later levels, demo looks like a joke.

 

[Delta9]

Belive me, you haven't seen anything. After you play some of the later levels, demo looks like a joke.

I know

Have seen basically all videos shown and just it's stuff was awesome.

 

[patsu]

I dont get it. It can have all these lightsources yet it doesn't have lightsource for bullet material impact/hit. Like projectiles hitting metall creating sparks that illuminate small radius for example.

Bullet impact area will light up but they are not light source. If they hit dirt, you'll see column of dirt upon impact too. They'll linger a little such that the dirt/smoke will engulf the Helghast from behind, which is pretty cool. The bullet marks will remain throughout the level.

if you hit the canister, then you'll see additional interaction and light source if it flares up.

Damn Helghasts haven't repeat their moves for the 10-20 times I played. Sometimes they hid (in different locations), sometimes they charged, sometimes they flanked. If I made an assumption of where they'd retreat to, I might get flanked myself. ^_^

It can be disorienting sometimes, but I really like the warzone vibe.

 

[the ignoramus]

Load stuttering is the most obvious, but this game can drop frames badly in certain areas. The motion blur works well in masking it, but it can't disguise the lowering of response in controls when the frame rate does drop. I'm capturing the whole experience of the single-player game from start to finish and will be producing a frame rate analysis in the next couple of days.

I'm disappointed about this. We were told we would get a stable 30 frames.
"30 frames with drops" isnt 30 fps locked. I'd say that spiel we got about the SPUs and percentages was smoke and mirrors then.