Killzone 2 pre-release discussion thread

[Carl B]

I think AI on a game basis goes beyond checkboxes to encompass the experience as a whole; and in that respect, we'll just simply have to wait to play it to judge it. From a technical standpoint, there can be complexity (or lack thereof) a good bit removed from what ends up on screen... but for that there's the technical presentations these devs run.

I remember that Guerilla was very proud/focused on their AI for the first Killzone though, so I wouldn't doubt them to have spent as much effort as they purport this go around. But we'll see of course for ourselves the extent of both its gameplay value-add and technical level of achievement soon enough.

********

On the AI/SPEs topic though, there are supports out there to indicate the SPEs might be well suited in fact for extremely complex AI, outside of the bounds of the branchy "if/then" stuff which is the norm in todays game code. When we talk about the actual field of AI, there is still a lot of developing theory across a number of architectural paradigms, and some of those do favor a parallelism/throughput model. Now I don't know if we'll ever see the effort put in to porting/developing anything like that for the PS3, but it is worth mentioning that there's more nuance than just the SPEs are bad at AI, because AI itself is so broad - and honestly young - a field.

 

[patsu]

I don't know about you but I am actually very happy that the devs are improving our games. If the game AI improves the gameplay, I'm all for it -- even if it's "only" squad level coordination and more organic/seamless/convincing animations.

As for your comments on "running out of bullet", I'd say it's best to wait for the game to come out. There is no point speculating.

In Uncharted, the pirates would hear the "click(s)" when I fired with an empty magazine, and they would shout "He's out !" to their comrades.

In KZ2, the Helgasts may or may not have the means to detect an "out of magazine" situation but that's besides the point. The objective of an AI is to make the game more varied, fun and immersive. I will always cherish big and small drama moments and surprises... even if some may think it's impossible to detect/estimate/guess empty clip situations in future battlefields. *If* they try to act differently when I pause my gunfire, it's still cool. Afterall, human can be fooled too.


EDIT: Just saw Carl's post. Yes, bullet point feature list does not necessarily convey the differences between AI subsystems.

Imo Uncharted AI is highly overrated.

All it does flank you and take cover (some select few stay behind cover, most of the time scripted). Its not exactly hard to make decent pathfinding skills. It also makes the game easier as third person + cover + semi accurate blind fire + uzi = easy mode

Uncharted enemies did more than that. They changed their firing positions, they sometimes did baseball slides to their covers, they reacted differently when hit in different spots. I am not sure what you want an enemy to do other than trying to flank and kill you while staying alive (and thrash talk with his buddies). Uncharted 2 enemies will be able to move in a more 3D world.

Not sure what you meant by time scripted, but the pirates p*ssed me off with their constant pressure (charging, flanking, grenades, frequent movement). I like pathfinding in Uncharted because they look smooth, efficient and organic even if the level is very cluttered.

I also like Elena and Sullivan. They really took the heat away from me. Once one of them joined me in the fight, I performed much better because the pirates were distracted by them.

On the AI/SPEs topic though, there are supports out there to indicate the SPEs might be well suited in fact for extremely complex AI, outside of the bounds of the branchy "if/then" stuff which is the norm in todays game code. When we talk about the actual field of AI, there is still a lot of developing theory across a number of architectural paradigms, and some of those do favor a parallelism/throughput model. Now I don't know if we'll ever see the effort put in to porting/developing anything like that for the PS3, but it is worth mentioning that there's more nuance than just the SPEs are bad at AI, because AI itself is so broad - and honestly young - a field.

Was going to post 1-2 Cell + AI technical papers. I remember there was a breadth first search paper for Cell where it outperformed a Blue Gene node (if problem size is big enough). It's somewhere in the CellPerformance subforum.

For small problems, it's probably more difficult to hide the overhead... depending on how the devs frame the problem I guess.

 

[Archgamer]

http://ps3.gamespy.com/dor/objects/748475/killzone-next-gen/videos/kill2_vid_013009.html

Super Bowl ad commercial?

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Uncharted enemies did more than that. They changed their firing positions, they sometimes did baseball slides to their covers, they reacted differently when hit in different spots.

Im not saying that the 3 or so features i posted was absolutely everything that uncharted ai did, but i cannot believe you listed "sliding into their cover" ? As long as you got the animations allready made, that is no harder to get your NPC to do than making them take cover to begin with.

I am not sure what you want an enemy to do other than trying to flank and kill you while staying alive (and thrash talk with his buddies).

I want the AI to assess the current situation, learn and try new methods for killing me. If i take cover behind something and 10 of your friends all get blasted with a shotgun every time they move around a certain rock, they should try something else rather than following in their fate.

Not sure what you meant by time scripted, but the pirates p*ssed me off with their constant pressure (charging, flanking, grenades, frequent movement). I like pathfinding in Uncharted because they look smooth, efficient and organic even if the level is very cluttered.

A lot of the AI moves are scripted, meaning that the AI does the same move everytime you are there. Regardless of what you are adoing.

 

[Nicked]

http://ps3.gamespy.com/dor/objects/748475/killzone-next-gen/videos/kill2_vid_013009.html

Super Bowl ad commercial?

Can kind of see why they would go with that style of ad (very hard to have a 'normal' trailer for the SB I would imagine), but am not sure I like it.

 

[patsu]

Im not saying that the 3 or so features i posted was absolutely everything that uncharted ai did, but i cannot believe you listed "sliding into their cover" ? As long as you got the animations allready made, that is no harder to get your NPC to do than making them take cover to begin with.

Why not ? As I mentioned above, the goal is to create an illusion of intelligence for entertainment purposes. They wouldn't have made the animation if they don't intend to use it for the enemy AI. At the end of the day, someone in ND took the time to craft more enemy actions to make things more challanging/fun, and more varied/realistic.

As Alex's writeup mentioned, a small animation library limits AI. Why complain when there's one more evade animation ?

I want the AI to assess the current situation, learn and try new methods for killing me. If i take cover behind something and 10 of your friends all get blasted with a shotgun every time they move around a certain rock, they should try something else rather than following in their fate.

When the AI does dynamic path finding, it is already assessing its current location and determining where (best) to go next. When the pirates noted your empty clip, they are already "learning" about your weakness. When they do baseball slides, they are using new techniques compared to games that do not have them. It's unfortunate that in FPSes, they can only shoot to kill. No matter what info they obtained, they won't be able to smother, seal/starve the player, or blow the entire building up.

Besides, there may only be one or two paths to your location (e.g., if you chose to camp behind a choke point). They have the numbers. If 10+ people managed to weaken you, the next guy may be the last straw.

A lot of the AI moves are scripted, meaning that the AI does the same move everytime you are there. Regardless of what you are adoing.

Sure. In Uncharted, they always path find to your new location rather quickly, and then apply a deterministic algorithm to get you. if a path to your current location is optimal, they will take it during replay.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Can I just remind people that this isn't a game AI thread. AI discussion across titles needs its own thread. And it'll be silly to talk about KZ2's AI in it when the game isn't out and we have no expereince of it!

GuestLV - I think that vid would just lead to noise. Anyone wanting to see any of millions of fanboy YouTube can happily search there.

 

[deepbrown]

Can I just remind people that this isn't a game AI thread. AI discussion across titles needs its own thread. And it'll be silly to talk about KZ2's AI in it when the game isn't out and we have no expereince of it!

GuestLV - I think that vid would just lead to noise. Anyone wanting to see any of millions of fanboy YouTube can happily search there.

I've played it...the AI is good.

The End.

 

[-tkf-]

http://ps3.gamespy.com/dor/objects/748475/killzone-next-gen/videos/kill2_vid_013009.html

Super Bowl ad commercial?

Haha nice, plays perfectly to the chest beating macho guys all over the world watching steroid pumped up men having close combat, near fist fights over a ball that isn't round.

And it looks incredible

 

[Gradthrawn]

Would have been interesting to see how this (Killzone Comic) would have panned out, and what they would have done with it.

EDIT

Almost forgot, the coupon code KZ2SAVE5 brings the Amazon pre-order price down to $52 ($5 bucks off). Curtesy of CheapAssGamer. Not sure if its US only or not.

 

[inefficient]

http://ps3.gamespy.com/dor/objects/748475/killzone-next-gen/videos/kill2_vid_013009.html

Super Bowl ad commercial?

Pretty sure that is fan made. It is quite amateur looking.

 

[RenegadeRocks]

Shifty has asked to stop so I won't elaborate, but I have played the first mission in Prebiew code and the AI felt very very good in it. I had posted my impressions then, if I put it down to one sentence:" They behaved differently for the two times I played the demo" and " The AI response update was happeneing very fast, meaning the Helghast refreshed their actions to the changing situation very fast" which did lead to a funny situation too, but it felt great !

I think patsu, from my experience of the demo, you will find more to like in KZ2 AI than Uncharted ! it felt tight.

 

[Terarrim]

As far as reviews are concerned most of the commentery of enemy AI seem to be excellent. With some conflicting views on friendly AI, to being usefull and intelligent to not so good. reviews also seem to universally mention how "good "the AI gets at tougher levels.

 

[betan]

I keep hearing there is no matchmaking support. I'm quite puzzle how they could have omitted that.
Are we supposed to browse thousands of lobbies to join random games or what?
Seriously if this is the case, that's even worse than Warhawk, great gameplay with terrible online service.

 

[patsu]

Shifty has asked to stop so I won't elaborate, but I have played the first mission in Prebiew code and the AI felt very very good in it. I had posted my impressions then, if I put it down to one sentence:" They behaved differently for the two times I played the demo" and " The AI response update was happeneing very fast, meaning the Helghast refreshed their actions to the changing situation very fast" which did lead to a funny situation too, but it felt great !

I think patsu, from my experience of the demo, you will find more to like in KZ2 AI than Uncharted ! it felt tight.

I believe one of the key challenges was to map KZ2's elaborate animations to the AI responses/actions and user actions in a timely fashion (e.g. no foot slides, delayed action, abrupt stop, awkward transition). I am still somewhat skeptical but what's shown so far seems tight. And yes, as long as it feels good playing, that's all that matters.

As far as reviews are concerned most of the commentery of enemy AI seem to be excellent. With some conflicting views on friendly AI, to being usefull and intelligent to not so good. reviews also seem to universally mention how "good "the AI gets at tougher levels.

Ha ha, friendly AI is caught in-between. I heard they had to tone it down because they were too effective in eliminating Helghast soldiers. Then again, they need to keep up with the players. I think the friendly AI is supposed/scripted to help you get to some areas physically (pull you up, or let you step on them). We'll see !

 

[patsu]

I keep hearing there is no matchmaking support. I'm quite puzzle how they could have omitted that.
Are we supposed to browse thousands of lobbies to join random games or what?
Seriously if this is the case, that's even worse than Warhawk, great gameplay with terrible online service.

That's what I gathered from GAF but I am not sure I understand it fully.

Are they going to use the Home lobbies also ?

 

[cameltoe1009]

I keep hearing there is no matchmaking support. I'm quite puzzle how they could have omitted that.
Are we supposed to browse thousands of lobbies to join random games or what?
Seriously if this is the case, that's even worse than Warhawk, great gameplay with terrible online service.

Terrible online service? Almost evrey PC game gives you a server browser and no goofy matchmaking.

I would much rather have the option of selecting the map, game type and so on that I want to play than to get thrown into a game mode I really do not want to play. Server browser in the way to go.

 

[betan]

Terrible online service? Almost evrey PC game gives you a server browser and no goofy matchmaking.

Yes it's terrible. I don't know the situation now, but the ancient PC ways were dictated by the fact that servers were hosted by 3rd parties.

I would much rather have the option of selecting the map, game type and so on that I want to play than to get thrown into a game mode I really do not want to play. Server browser in the way to go.

Most games with decent online service also allow custom matches and lobby browsing, this doesn't precule matchmaking.

Furthermore lobby based games should not be used for rankings as it's highly abusable.
If you have a class and ranking system, you better have matchmaking to go with it.

There is no excuse for Killzone 2 not to have matchmaking.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

When A.I is handled on SPEs, it tends to be for primitive A.I i.e. when displaying huge crowds on screen (showing 'some' behaviour), more complex A.I for smaller groups that actually interact with the player tends to be processed on the PPE.

As far as I know most of the AI processing time is usually spent on raycasting in the scene in order to determine what the AI can sense. The rest is rather simple stuff as even Halo1 on the first Xbox has been able to do some cool stuff and that was quite a bit less powerful then the PS3 and X360.
Now, SPE's should be fast at raycasting (number crunching) but the general problem of local memory is still there... but it certainly shouldn't limit games to primitive AI.

 

[patsu]

http://ps3.gamespy.com/dor/objects/748475/killzone-next-gen/videos/kill2_vid_013009.html

Super Bowl ad commercial?

http://www.gamezine.co.uk/news/game-types/shooter/is-killzone-2-superbowl-ad-fan-made--$1265190.htm

That's right, we know this year's Superbowl ad roster and Killzone 2 isn't on it. Sorry folks, it's just not there.

Now there's a few possible explanations. Perhaps Sony is airing the advertisement before the Superbowl coverage begins (hence, "Enjoy the Game"); maybe the ad is a web tie-in for video game websites to host; or maybe it's not an official Sony ad at all and is simply fan made