Killzone 2 pre-release discussion thread

[vanquish]

actually... read it again

Thanks, that is indeed what I was getting, eb suggested KZ2's AI was:

a massive step forward for FPS's. Surely it's the biggest improvement a game can of any genre can have...enemy that actually acts like it's a real living thing!? It means nothing is predictable and it also means great replayability.

I took issue with that comment, since even Halo 1 had enemies that acted like 'real living things' and many shooters have AI that does different things each playthrough. So such comments seemed to indicate that eb had no experience of shooters with decent AI.

It sounded like gushing to me, as while KZ2's AI is indeed impressive, it's not as if the've achieved the Holy Grail of AI here.

PS: By Far Cry, I actually meant Far Cry 1 ( dunno about FC2) it had impressive AI at the time.

 

[the ignoramus]

I walked in front of a red barrel in the warehouse while engaging the HGHs. One of them yells "shoot that barrel!" and I promptly died.

 

[patsu]

I took issue with that comment, since even Halo 1 had enemies that acted like 'real living things' and many shooters have AI that does different things each playthrough. So such comments seemed to indicate that eb had no experience of shooters with decent AI.

It sounded like gushing to me, as while KZ2's AI is indeed impressive, it's not as if the've achieved the Holy Grail of AI here.

PS: By Far Cry, I actually meant Far Cry 1 ( dunno about FC2) it had impressive AI at the time.

Halo's AI is great but they took a slightly different route. The Elites, Grunts, Brutes and Jackals have their distinct behaviours. In the KZ2 demo alone, the regular foot soldiers look the same but they can use very different tactics; hence the unpredictability in-game.

In the warehouse, the KZ2 soldiers usually "hug" the terrain as they move (They are aware of the environment, such as destructible covers). They will traverse to both floors; granted, it's a small second floor. According to reviews and interviews, the Helghasts have other tricks up their sleeves but the demo is probably too short to showcase them. I really look forward to the actual game and higher difficulty. A bigger level will free them, but may also paralyze them.

One of the programmers for KZ2 AI wrote an article about Crysis (and FarCry) AI: http://aigamedev.com/reviews/crysis-animation-integration (He's trying to solve AI-driven animation problems). You may find it interesting.

I walked in front of a red barrel in the warehouse while engaging the HGHs. One of them yells "shoot that barrel!" and I promptly died.

Ha ha, well played ! They haven't done that to me yet.

There might be other funny moments. One of the GAF posters saw a Helghast butt-scoot on a railing to evade bullets (He landed there to avoid a grenade).

 

[Cheezdoodles]

My talk focused on Far Cry 2 as I felt it had the best AI out of the three.

Have you actually played Far Cry 2? It has terrible AI, dunno why you people claim it to have good AI.

I have never seen any of the NPC's in Far Cry 2 do anything smart, the only thing they do is see completely through foilage and they run towards you.

I haven't really seen the NPC's in the demo do anything i haven't allready seen done in F.E.A.R. in 2005.

 

[RenegadeRocks]

and they constantly adjust to cover. Yesterday, one Helghast went prone to get a good shot at me It is interesting how just one small area is giving us all so many different experiences !
Isn't that remarkable !

 

[RenegadeRocks]

Offscreen photos always provides some sort of enhancement unless the camera is from a cellphone. Either the light exposure, image smoothness or just panel/glass reflection effect. Or if processed in an image editor. Though it does look quite close but jaggies are visible.

Play the demo again Nebula !Those images are not off-screen. In fact if you wait for some time at the beach where you fight with Helghast in APC, then you will also see sand swirl throught the wind and Garza's feet kicking up sand every time he moves. Attention has been paid to something I didn't even look at in around 10 playthroughs!

 

[betan]

Have you actually played Far Cry 2? It has terrible AI, dunno why you people claim it to have good AI.

I have never seen any of the NPC's in Far Cry 2 do anything smart, the only thing they do is see completely through foilage and they run towards you.

As much as I hated Far Cry 2, that's not true. They often separate and try to circle around you when possible when they are together. Of course that doesn't exactly make the AI Turing test passable, but still better than dumb shortest path approach.

I haven't really seen the NPC's in the demo do anything i haven't allready seen done in F.E.A.R. in 2005.

Not that I completely disagree with this (especially since it's default difficulty and first level), I don't recall FEAR AI using cover efficiently or even do melee run. It has been some time of course, please refresh my memory.

The single thing I remember from FEAR is that they sometimes tried to flank you which was obviously not rocket science with the corridor heavy, simplistic levels. Interestingly I don't recall any such thing from FEAR 2 demo, for some reason.

edit:
In any case, the AI comparison for those of us who haven't played the whole game is ridiculous.

 

[goonergaz]

Sorry if I opened a can of worms by saying the AI was the best I'd ever seen...I was only being truthful!

FTR I am a casual gamer and only play a limited amount of games and genres a limited amount of times, I played through H3 on normal (like I play all my games) but apparently I shouldn't have!?

In the KZ2 demo alone, the regular foot soldiers look the same but they can use very different tactics; hence the unpredictability in-game.

In the warehouse, the KZ2 soldiers usually "hug" the terrain as they move (They are aware of the environment, such as destructible covers). They will traverse to both floors; granted, it's a small second floor.

Thanks. This is all I was trying to get at - what's interesting is you won't be able to say/think "ah - it's that type of enemy so this is the best way to kill it" as you cannot tell which AI 'mindset' he will have. There's something 'real' and unpredictable about their actions - I can't put my finger on it, it's the first time I felt like this, but having played through around 10 times each playthrough was massively different (bar the scripted bits obviously)...and that impressed me. This is one game where you can't just tell people (easily) how to get through a level, this has been demonstrated by people advising (in around 3/4 different ways) how to get the rifle!

Anyway, each to their own...I will always play games on normal and therefore rate the experience by that...and so far I'm thinking this will be an excellent game for me.

 

[RenegadeRocks]

LOL !

 

[vanquish]

LOL !

Yes, but where does his head go, that's what I want to know. If you're going to pay attention to detail, you better do it properly, and not just ignore some things.

 

[grandmaster]

Just about finished the game now and have to say that once you get to the desert stage, it becomes far more entertaining, and yes, there is far more variety. And it also gets a lot more ambitious. The demo is only the tiniest taster of what the game offers. It really does turn from an excellent technical showcase into a real gaming event. It is indeed a game of two halves, because I found the pre-desert levels to be very much of a muchness and gave me a very negative opinion of the game's single-player mode.

However, I'd also say that on the flipside, engine performance does deteriorate significantly the more crazy stuff that GG come up with - so comments like "frame rate's not an issue, look at the demo" aren't really helpful. While the game does indeed run for the most part at 30fps, even on the first level (beyond the demo bit), I've measured drops to below 20fps.

I've got about 10 hours of gameplay from it, but if I actually knew where I was being shot from half the time, the game would be a lot easier. Sometimes you're helplessly crouching behind cover, trying to recover and you're just continually getting shot to pieces and it's almost impossible to find out where it's coming from. It is immensely frustrating.

Also, I'm gonna stick to my guns with the cover system. It's awfully inconsistent. What kind of cover system puts you behind cover but leaves your head exposed? Why can't your character simply crouch down a bit more? Half the time I'm running away to safe ground because you can't trust the cover system to actually keep you safe.

 

[goonergaz]

regarding not knowing where you're being shot from...I had no idea either, but my Son knew - so maybe we're missing something!?

I'll have to ask him - how embarresing!

 

[Cheezdoodles]

They often separate and try to circle around you when possible when they are together

Not that I completely disagree with this (especially since it's default difficulty and first level), I don't recall FEAR AI using cover efficiently or even do melee run. It has been some time of course, please refresh my memory.

The single thing I remember from FEAR is that they sometimes tried to flank you which was obviously not rocket science with the corridor heavy, simplistic levels. Interestingly I don't recall any such thing from FEAR 2 demo, for some reason.

FEAR enemies did take cover, they could melee your ass if they want to (dunno what melee runs have to do with having good ai) and they where very aggressive flankers.

Obviously since f.e.a.r. was a fps that came out prior to "crouch behind button" cover, there is less obvious covers around for the enemy to take use of, but enemies would take positions behind walls, pillars, tables etc.

Im not saying that KZ2 AI is bad or anything, it seemed perfectly fine but imo its to hard to judge the AI based on 2,5 arenas of KZ2. So far the only thing ive really noticed is that the AI is varied and will try different things so each playthrough is "different".

 

[assurdum]

Just about finished the game now and have to say that once you get to the desert stage, it becomes far more entertaining, and yes, there is far more variety. And it also gets a lot more ambitious. The demo is only the tiniest taster of what the game offers. It really does turn from an excellent technical showcase into a real gaming event. It is indeed a game of two halves, because I found the pre-desert levels to be very much of a muchness and gave me a very negative opinion of the game's single-player mode.

However, I'd also say that on the flipside, engine performance does deteriorate significantly the more crazy stuff that GG come up with - so comments like "frame rate's not an issue, look at the demo" aren't really helpful. While the game does indeed run for the most part at 30fps, even on the first level (beyond the demo bit), I've measured drops to below 20fps.

I've got about 10 hours of gameplay from it, but if I actually knew where I was being shot from half the time, the game would be a lot easier. Sometimes you're helplessly crouching behind cover, trying to recover and you're just continually getting shot to pieces and it's almost impossible to find out where it's coming from. It is immensely frustrating.

Also, I'm gonna stick to my guns with the cover system. It's awfully inconsistent. What kind of cover system puts you behind cover but leaves your head exposed? Why can't your character simply crouch down a bit more? Half the time I'm running away to safe ground because you can't trust the cover system to actually keep you safe.

Unfortunately I just know this flaw; I have reported time ago, however the engine remain really impressive .The goodness of the AI is evident only at highest level.

 

[Phil]

grandmaster,

about the cover system: I would think if you can see the enemy, they can see you and are therefore in the line of sight to be shot at, though at least judging by the demo, the chances of getting hit was a whole lot slimmer than standing out in the open waiting to get hammered with bullets.

I'm also not sure, but I was under the impression that in normal position while sticking to the wall under cover, the chances of getting hit are quite minor. It is when you start shooting from your cover that you expose yourself more.

 

[Arwin]

its to hard to judge the AI based on 2,5 arenas of KZ2. So far the only thing ive really noticed is that the AI is varied and will try different things so each playthrough is "different".

Not to mention that we can only select a low difficulty level. The cleverness of AI can I think only be fully appreciated on the highest levels. But the variation in their play is good already, that's one thing we know.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Not to mention that we can only select a low difficulty level. The cleverness of AI can I think only be fully appreciated on the highest levels. But the variation in their play is good already, that's one thing we know.

Most of the time the cleverness of the AI is not going to become greater with increased difficulty, the usual path for most developers is to "cheat", making the enemy AI more accurate, powerful or stronger, instead of actually making the AI smarter.

End result is a harder game with both approaches but latter one is atleast to me the most appealing but sadly much more expensive.

Lets hope KZ2 is one of the titles where cleverness is increased .

 

[assurdum]

Most of the time the cleverness of the AI is not going to become greater with increased difficulty, the usual path for most developers is to "cheat", making the enemy AI more accurate, powerful or stronger, instead of actually making the AI smarter.

End result is a harder game with both approaches but latter one is atleast to me the most appealing but sadly much more expensive

Not in this case, trust me. To appreciate cleverness of the AI in killzone 2 the difficulty level have to increased.

 

[grandmaster]

grandmaster,

about the cover system: I would think if you can see the enemy, they can see you and are therefore in the line of sight to be shot at, though at least judging by the demo, the chances of getting hit was a whole lot slimmer than standing out in the open waiting to get hammered with bullets.

I'm also not sure, but I was under the impression that in normal position while sticking to the wall under cover, the chances of getting hit are quite minor. It is when you start shooting from your cover that you expose yourself more.

The point isn't so much about the tall walls, it's for the ones that you couch behind. I get your point that if you see them, they can see you, but it still doesn't explain why your guy just doesn't crouch down a bit more so the cover actually, you know, covers him.

Even if the chances of being hit are lower, when you're at your last ebb of energy, it's still not good enough. Just a couple of stray shots are enough to finish you off. This is why I'm finding myself not using much of the cover at all, but instead running back to an area I've completely cleansed of Helghast in order to recover properly.

 

[catisfit]

Yes, but where does his head go, that's what I want to know. If you're going to pay attention to detail, you better do it properly, and not just ignore some things.

I'm not sure what kind of attention to detail would be required for these magical headshots which are able to sever the head from the body completely, yet not harm the head itself in any way.

The point isn't so much about the tall walls, it's for the ones that you couch behind. I get your point that if you see them, they can see you, but it still doesn't explain why your guy just doesn't crouch down a bit more so the cover actually, you know, covers him.

Even if the chances of being hit are lower, when you're at your last ebb of energy, it's still not good enough. Just a couple of stray shots are enough to finish you off. This is why I'm finding myself not using much of the cover at all, but instead running back to an area I've completely cleansed of Helghast in order to recover properly.

The alternative (staring at a blank wall in total invulnerability until you get killed in a flanking move you couldn't see) wouldn't be particularly pleasant from a gameplay point of view either.

Being able to see everything whilst remaning invulnerable has its place in R6V or Quantum of Solace, where the gameplay is about a methodical elimination of targets which may not even know you are there. However, I don't think that style of cover "cheating" would work very well in a warzone environment, in which you shouldn't really have the opportunity to "live pause" the game and take stock of the situation for as long as you choose.