Gabe Nevell Next gen Console Video Interview

[aaaaa00]

Which is a great reason it shouldn't have taken MS 10 years to come up with an improved driver model.

You don't necessarily get everything right on the first try when architecting something as complicated as a graphics driver model.

Besides the requirements for the driver model change over time anyway as the hardware evolves, so you evolve the driver model to match.

Eventually things get messy.

So what might have been a decent graphics driver model 10 years ago, probably isn't one today. So then you go through, rearchitect everything and clean it up, and the cycle starts over.

So double razz back to you!

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I dunno, but I thought he said something like this... Sony made the PS3 architecture this way so that the game/engine code written to make use of the SPEs is far too hard to port to any other platform. Sony also wants to build the image that they'll have monopoly with this gen again, so that all developers will take the PS3 as their primary platform. This would result in developers with limited budgets to be unable to port their games to other platforms, which is exactly what Sony wants; and it will also strengthen their monopoly as well. At least as I got it...

If they don't want cross platform why are they providing cross-platform middleware solutions like Novodex and UE3 trials? Why would they want to design a wierd architecture to stop cross-platform development when that didn't work this gen? It's a totally bunk concept that STI developed a system to be difficult. They had a mandate to produce a fast media-centric processor with systems to try and overcome the BW bottleneck of modern computing. The only way to stop cross-platform development (much of developments costs are in assets, not engine, which are portable soa total rewrite for the different architectures is still reasonably cost effective) is to pull a Nintendo and say 'You cannot produce games for us as well as our enemies'.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Come on people, it's not me saying that, it's Gabe Nevell

 

[mckmas8808]

If they don't want cross platform why are they providing cross-platform middleware solutions like Novodex and UE3 trials? Why would they want to design a wierd architecture to stop cross-platform development when that didn't work this gen? It's a totally bunk concept that STI developed a system to be difficult. They had a mandate to produce a fast media-centric processor with systems to try and overcome the BW bottleneck of modern computing. The only way to stop cross-platform development (much of developments costs are in assets, not engine, which are portable soa total rewrite for the different architectures is still reasonably cost effective) is to pull a Nintendo and say 'You cannot produce games for us as well as our enemies'.

And isn't Sony creating COLLADA to help move different extensions, models, etc. from different hardware? I read something that says that COLLADA will make the process of developing games easier. Like having alot of things more universal. So what is Gabe talking about?

Can someone that knows more about COLLADA talk about it abit? I noticed that Ageia has alot of work going on with it too. Those guys seem to be really excited about COLLADA.

 

[jonnyp]

Gabe Newell either needs to stop whining and get on with making games, it's the same for every developer - it's their jobs, or stop making games and find another line of work.

And he also needs to put the fork down.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

And isn't Sony creating COLLADA to help move different extensions, models, etc. from different hardware? I read something that says that COLLADA will make the process of developing games easier.

COLLADA's a file format for 3D models, in the same way .jpg and .png are file formats for images, or .wav and .mp3 are fileformats for audio. It's primarily to help content creators port 3D data between applications and use it in final software, both for media and games. As an interchange format's it's hardware independant just as .jpgs and .mp3s are.

 

[mckmas8808]

COLLADA's a file format for 3D models, in the same way .jpg and .png are file formats for images, or .wav and .mp3 are fileformats for audio. It's primarily to help content creators port 3D data between applications and use it in final software, both for media and games. As an interchange format's it's hardware independant just as .jpgs and .mp3s are.

So if and when they make a Spiderman 3 movie, they could use the CGI in the movie and easily convert it to 3D models in videogames? Is that how they made the Doc Ock look so good in the demo? Is that what COLLADA going to give? If so then sweet.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

That's one of the ideas, yes. Sony have actually mentioned explicitly using movie assets in games directly. It's quite probably SpiderMan3 models will feature on PS3 and XB360 and other hardware using suitable LOD to reduce the detail to that the hardware can cope with. Which makes movie tie-ins cheaper, and more appealing. Which I'm not sure is a good idea. I fear a mass of movie tie-ins, recycled storylines and UE3 based games for a severe lack of originality across the board.

 

[onetimeposter]

Gabe Nevell:

Xbox 360 programming is multithreaded, Multithreading programming is much newer and much harder.

PS3 programming is multithreaded and parallel, First we have to multithread and then we need to check if its efficiently using all desired SPEs. Efficiency becomes harder thus program runs slower.


This could mean programmers using less SPEs in first 1 or 2 generations of PS3 games

 

[mckmas8808]

Gabe Nevell:

Xbox 360 programming is multithreaded, Multithreading programming is much newer and much harder.

PS3 programming is multithreaded and parallel, First we have to multithread and then we need to check if its efficiently using all desired SPEs. Efficiency becomes harder thus program runs slower.


This could mean programmers using less SPEs in first 1 or 2 generations of PS3 games

Well yeah of course, but he's still not looking to good. Devs may only use 3 or 4 SPE's during the first one year or so. Not bad I guess. I'm not sure. Only people like DeanoC know how many SPE's will be used within the first year or two.

 

[CosmoKramer]

Yes, but popular games =! good games.

How else would you judge if a game is good if not by its popularity?

Sure, there can be gems that are undiscovered by the general public (for whatever reasons) that potentially could be popular, but populat games are per definition good games.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Didn't the Matrix game sell millions despite neing slater in every review? Wasn't Driv3r also fairly popular despite being poor? And any Final Fanatasy game sells well though by accounts some aren't great. I don't think popularity is any firm measure of a good game. Might just be popular because of a popular franchise.

 

[CosmoKramer]

Popularity != sales

 

[scificube]

Gabe Nevell:

Xbox 360 programming is multithreaded, Multithreading programming is much newer and much harder.

PS3 programming is multithreaded and parallel, First we have to multithread and then we need to check if its efficiently using all desired SPEs. Efficiency becomes harder thus program runs slower.


This could mean programmers using less SPEs in first 1 or 2 generations of PS3 games

How is code meant for X360 not also multi-threaded AND parallel?

Single core apps have been multi-threaded for ages. Running multiple threads on multiple cores is what is new and is common to both the Cell and the X360 CPU as well as desktop CPU's.

That statement makes no sense to me. Where did Gabe say that?

I doubt devs will not attempt to use all the SPEs even if what they are used inefficiently (which I suspect will be a not so uncommon occurrence). To intentionally let SPEs sit idle makes no sense at all...even if your game is whirling by at 120FPS.

 

[onetimeposter]

How is code meant for X360 not also multi-threaded AND parallel?

Single core apps have been multi-threaded for ages. Running multiple threads on multiple cores is what is new and is common to both the Cell and the X360 CPU as well as desktop CPU's.

That statement makes no sense to me. Where did Gabe say that?

I doubt devs will not attempt to use all the SPEs even if what they are used inefficiently (which I suspect will be a not so uncommon occurrence). To intentionally let SPEs sit idle makes no sense at all...even if your game is whirling by at 120FPS.

because Xbox 360 is not as massively parallel as Cell . if it was, its Gflop would be 3 times as more.

 

[scificube]

It is still a parallel architecture. It's 3 homogenous cores vs. 7 heterogeneous cores...6 threads vs. 8 threads to use in code.

The difference is more so in "how" one deals with extracting parrallelism in code but one would have to do so extensively and well for both the X360 and the PS3.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

That's one of the ideas, yes. Sony have actually mentioned explicitly using movie assets in games directly. It's quite probably SpiderMan3 models will feature on PS3 and XB360 and other hardware using suitable LOD to reduce the detail to that the hardware can cope with.

That isn't such a good idea for several reasons...

The first is obviously that for a video game, you need everything from the movie - scenery, objects, background characters etc. Just because the vfx studio has CG doubles for some of the main characters, all that work won't go away. It could help the game developer with maybe 5-10% of the art assets at most.

Then there are the artistic and technicall issues. As good as a movie VFX asset looks, it might not be suitable for a video game that usually has more stylized graphics. And technically, it is a lot more complex than an asset for the nextgen consoles... and it's not as simple as running some magical LOD tool on it to make the changes. You can't do fully simulated clothing and hair in realtime yet, for example, but both are key components of a good digital double. All in all, it's better to just use the movie asset as a reference and rebuild it from the ground up, IMHO.

So this whole thing, if Sony truly said it, is really nothing more than some additional marketing for the PS3 and its supercomputer powers...

 

[Shifty Geezer]

For computer games it didn't seem so great an idea as it's only good for movie tie-ins, and they're (thankfully) not that prevalent! As a 'tool' for studios it's got to be a good thing though (until someone writes the perfect graphics app that does everything well and you never need use an alternative, eg. Maya develops Z-Brush like modelling tools). Exchanging data is often a pain in the arse. And as a long term strategy for when graphics CAN handle complex CG like graphics it's good to set the ground work now.

Certainly I think of it as something of a non-event for PS3 though.

 

[mckmas8808]

So this whole thing, if Sony truly said it, is really nothing more than some additional marketing for the PS3 and its supercomputer powers...

I did read something like that though about COLLADA. I know you are in the industry so you should be able to answer this stuff with ease. Is there no way that COLLADA can help in the respect that Shifty asked? Or could it be that you personally don't know enough about it to answer the question? I mean if you don't know it's ok.

I could have sworn that this new software was suppose to make things exactly like moving 3D models etc. between different platforms with ease. And that movie tie-ins was one of the big advantages.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I believe the comments may have come from King Kenny, and we know how 'visionary' he is. Sometimes he can be a little...'ahead of his time'