Formula 1 - 2013 Season

Back then you had the right to keep your driving lane when you were ahead like Kimi was, Hamilton should have backed off and try again later.

Yeah Kimi wasn't ahead until he drove Hamilton off the track, that's the point.

http://www.madtv.me.uk/f1insight/default.aspx?blogid=354

That explains it all perfectly as well as questioning why, if Hamilton's move was illegal, why didn't Kimi get a penalty for the same thing later when get gained a huge advantage after running wide?

Your video shows it clearly as wll at 1:36, Kimi gaining an advantage by running wide, then passing Hamilton - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6NkV0XFcUI&feature=player_detailpage#t=93

The difference is...?

Had he lifted off and actually do the corner, he wouldn't have been anywhere as close to Kimi on the straight, he first barely let Kimi back ahead and then slipstreamed right away past him, something he would have never had a chance to do without cutting the corner.
Hamilton was ahead moving into the corner.

Spa01aa.jpg


Then Kimi with late breaking too the inside, however he didn't stay there and clearly drove Hamilton off the track. What is Hamilton supposed to do except leave the track?

Spa01d.jpg


It's clear from that pic that Kimi was simply driving Hamilton off the track at that point, making no attempt to do anything else. Kimi has a history of running guys wide and he did it again here.

As for the penalty itself?

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/09/...stable-door-after-the-horse-has-bolted-video/

The exact same situation 3 years before with Alonso and Klein. The stewards reversed a previous decision they had made in that race, penalised Hamilton for doing nothing wrong (the rules simply stated that he must give the place back, which he did), then failed to penalise Kimi for actually gaining an advantage a few corners later to re-pass Hamilton.

Just a pathetic bit of stewarding all around tbh.
 
Yeah Kimi wasn't ahead until he drove Hamilton off the track, that's the point.

http://www.madtv.me.uk/f1insight/default.aspx?blogid=354

That explains it all perfectly as well as questioning why, if Hamilton's move was illegal, why didn't Kimi get a penalty for the same thing later when get gained a huge advantage after running wide?

Your video shows it clearly as wll at 1:36, Kimi gaining an advantage by running wide, then passing Hamilton - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6NkV0XFcUI&feature=player_detailpage#t=93

The difference is...?
The difference is that Kimi passed Hamilton because Hamilton had to drive wide to dodge a slow car ahead, and the fact that Kimi spun just seconds later and lost all the advantage and more?
Hamilton was ahead moving into the corner.

Spa01aa.jpg


Then Kimi with late breaking too the inside, however he didn't stay there and clearly drove Hamilton off the track. What is Hamilton supposed to do except leave the track?

Spa01d.jpg


It's clear from that pic that Kimi was simply driving Hamilton off the track at that point, making no attempt to do anything else. Kimi has a history of running guys wide and he did it again here.
Kimi doesn't have a history of doing such, feel free to show examples to prove otherwise.

Kimi had the inside line, broke late enough to be ahead and drove through the corner the only possible line when entering it from as inside as he entered - which back then was allowed when you were ahead like he was.
As for the penalty itself?

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/09/...stable-door-after-the-horse-has-bolted-video/

The exact same situation 3 years before with Alonso and Klein. The stewards reversed a previous decision they had made in that race, penalised Hamilton for doing nothing wrong (the rules simply stated that he must give the place back, which he did), then failed to penalise Kimi for actually gaining an advantage a few corners later to re-pass Hamilton.

Just a pathetic bit of stewarding all around tbh.

Kimi was not penalized because of the reasons I mentioned above.

The rules state that you can't gain advantage from going off the track, and any places gained need to be given back - Hamilton gained clear advantage even though he gave the place back for 2 seconds.

IIRC FIA admitted that they made a mistake on the Alonso/Klein case, and due miscommunication the message to let Klein pass was given twice.
 
The difference is that Kimi passed Hamilton because Hamilton had to drive wide to dodge a slow car ahead, and the fact that Kimi spun just seconds later and lost all the advantage and more?

He was only in that position because of his illegal move off the track the previous corner gained him enough of an advantage to close. Who knows what effect that had on Hamilton's concentration as he came up to the back marker? As for Kimi spinning later, that doesn't make any difference to the fact that he gained an unfair advantage the corner before, no more than a blown tyre on the last lap would make a difference to what transpired at that point.

Kimi had the inside line, broke late enough to be ahead and drove through the corner the only possible line when entering it from as inside as he entered - which back then was allowed when you were ahead like he was.
The inside line doesn't mean he can deliberately run a car who is in front of him wide and off the track. You are supposed to leave enough room, he clearly didn't do that after Hamilton had fairly left him enough room at the previous corner.

The rules state that you can't gain advantage from going off the track, and any places gained need to be given back - Hamilton gained clear advantage even though he gave the place back for 2 seconds.
Did the rules say you have to give the driver ahead 3 seconds or more? No, they simply state that you have to give the place back - which he very clearly did. Nowhere does it say "and then you can't slipstream or re-pass the driver". In fact it was days later that they added that the driver had to wait until the next corner before attempting a re-pass.

Hamilton broke NO rules. He did everything by the book. Even on the pass down the straight he barely moved while Kimi was the one weaving all over the place.

IIRC FIA admitted that they made a mistake on the Alonso/Klein case, and due miscommunication the message to let Klein pass was given twice.
The point is that the exact same move was deemed as fair in the Alonso case. Alonso allowed Klein to re-pass, Hamilton allowed Kimi to re-pass. Alonso didn't get a penalty (although he too was harshly penalised by a miscommunication), Hamilton did - otherwise they are exactly the same.
 
He was only in that position because of his illegal move off the track the previous corner gained him enough of an advantage to close. Who knows what effect that had on Hamilton's concentration as he came up to the back marker? As for Kimi spinning later, that doesn't make any difference to the fact that he gained an unfair advantage the corner before, no more than a blown tyre on the last lap would make a difference to what transpired at that point.
Yes it does, if you gain advantage you have 3 corners to lose the gained advantage, Kimi spun and thus lost any gained advantage (and more)
The inside line doesn't mean he can deliberately run a car who is in front of him wide and off the track. You are supposed to leave enough room, he clearly didn't do that after Hamilton had fairly left him enough room at the previous corner.
When Hamilton had nowhere else to go but either slow or go out, Kimi was far ahead, had Hamilton been faster through the corner that wouldn't have been the case bu the wasn't.
Back then you had the right to keep your line if you're ahead, the rules have changed since, but back then it was Hamiltons job to slow down since there was no room and he was behind.
Did the rules say you have to give the driver ahead 3 seconds or more? No, they simply state that you have to give the place back - which he very clearly did. Nowhere does it say "and then you can't slipstream or re-pass the driver". In fact it was days later that they added that the driver had to wait until the next corner before attempting a re-pass.

Actually the rules, assuming this part hasn't changed since I can't find 2008 copy of them, state that you can't gain any advantage, the usual solution is that you have to give the position back, but that also usually means that you do actually lose the advantage you gained - in case of Hamilton he didn't lose it, he wouldn't have been anywhere near as close to Kimi had he done the corner properly and thus not gained advantage.
Should a car leave the track the driver may rejoin, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage.


Hamilton broke NO rules. He did everything by the book. Even on the pass down the straight he barely moved while Kimi was the one weaving all over the place.
No, he didn't do everything by the book. Yes, he broke the rules, he gained advantage. If he had done the corner properly he wouldn't have been anywhere near as close on the straight.
Kimi was only moving to the line he was going to take through the corner, on slippery track it looks like "weaving all over the place" but he only moved towards outer edge of the track, not even a slight bit towards inside corner
The point is that the exact same move was deemed as fair in the Alonso case. Alonso allowed Klein to re-pass, Hamilton allowed Kimi to re-pass. Alonso didn't get a penalty (although he too was harshly penalised by a miscommunication), Hamilton did - otherwise they are exactly the same.
Can you find a video of the Alonso-Klein case? It's hard to say how much Alonso gained and lost when giving back the position first time when I can't remember the exact incident.
 
Yes it does, if you gain advantage you have 3 corners to lose the gained advantage, Kimi spun and thus lost any gained advantage (and more)

When Hamilton had nowhere else to go but either slow or go out, Kimi was far ahead, had Hamilton been faster through the corner that wouldn't have been the case bu the wasn't.
Back then you had the right to keep your line if you're ahead, the rules have changed since, but back then it was Hamiltons job to slow down since there was no room and he was behind.

Far ahead? He was barely half a car length and the only reason he had that was because he made Hamilton make the decision to either run off or cause an accident.

Was he further ahead at that point than he was when Hamilton allowed him to pass before the start/finish line? Clearly not. Therefore, how could Hamilton have gained an advantage when he was further behind than he was before he was run off the track?

Actually the rules, assuming this part hasn't changed since I can't find 2008 copy of them, state that you can't gain any advantage, the usual solution is that you have to give the position back, but that also usually means that you do actually lose the advantage you gained - in case of Hamilton he didn't lose it, he wouldn't have been anywhere near as close to Kimi had he done the corner properly and thus not gained advantage.
Hamilton lost the advantage after Kimi ran him off the track. He was ahead, then level, and even when Kimi ran him off the track (remember Hamilton would have had the inside line at the final corner) he was only half a car length behind. He then gave up the place he gained "unfairly" by allowing Kimi to pass anyway. Hamilton LOST track position by giving up the place. He was recorded as driving 6 km/h slower than Kimi at the start/finish line.

No, he didn't do everything by the book. Yes, he broke the rules, he gained advantage. If he had done the corner properly he wouldn't have been anywhere near as close on the straight.
He "gained advantage" by being run off the track after being at worst half a car length behind while holding the inside line.

Explain to me how that is any different from what happened at the previous corner when Hamilton was half a length ahead? The obvious reason is that Hamilton didn't make Kimi choose between the place or an accident, while Kimi did.

Then clearly Hamilton was a full car length behind at the start/finish line. How can that be an advantage? He passed Kimi fairly, like he would have done two corners previously had Kimi not basically ran him off the track.

Kimi was only moving to the line he was going to take through the corner, on slippery track it looks like "weaving all over the place" but he only moved towards outer edge of the track, not even a slight bit towards inside corner
And Hamilton drove in a straight line and simply outbraked him. I mean Jesus wtf is he supposed to do? He let him past, as per the rules, then re-passed by outbraking him next corner. All of that was totally by the book. There was no "next corner" rule until 5 days after the incident.

Can you find a video of the Alonso-Klein case? It's hard to say how much Alonso gained and lost when giving back the position first time when I can't remember the exact incident.
It was in the first link I gave, here it is again though on it's own site.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6qjjg_alonso-klien_sport

The important information -

To summarise:
1. Alonso lines up Klien to pass him on the outside of the chicane
2. Alonso fails to make the corner and cuts it, gaining an advantage by passing Klien
3. Alonso allows Klien to re-pass him
4. Alonso passes Klien again at the very next corner
5. Alonso catches Michael Schumacher but is informed by race control he must let Klien pass again
6. Alonso lets Klien pass him again
7. Race control cancel the instruction to Alonso to let Klien pass – but it is too late, because he already has.
 
Ok well back to 2013...

Red Bulls superfast in all practice runs, Grosjean looked to have good race pace again. Hamilton was all over the place until a late switch on to the mediums, at which point he seemed to be competitive in long run pace.

Spa is such a random circuit anything is possible though. There has been some strange front rows and lots of different winners recently, and obviously the weather plays a part. I think it might be my favourite race overall.
 
Van Der Garde 3rd in Q3 :D Brave move by Caterham and Marussia too with Bianchi and Chilton through after going out on slicks late.
 
Hamilton could be in trouble here in Q2....rofl scrapes through in 10th, 2 hundredths faster than Hulk. He's really struggling here.
 
And it's going to rain again. Love Spa lol, anyone could be top now. All of them in for inters, Di Resta waited and went out on them later, could work to his advantage.
 
Hamilton beats the 2 Red Bulls even coming after, then Rosberg beats it. Great stuff by Rosberg. Gah Rosberg beats Di Resta really late! Shame - it's drying out now.
 
Could be Hamilton pole...LMAO.

Luckiest pole in Hamilton's career by far, that couldn't have been timed any better. He has been NOWHERE all weekend.
 
They have been so strong all weekend it's hard to see past them. Kimi and Alonso way down as well. Maybe Rosberg can do something in the race, he's been ahead of Hamilton all weekend apart from the final lap of qualifying.
 
Nice to see Mercedes sandbagging all weekend like red bull used to convincing everyone else they actually have a chance of pole.

Should be a good race. Will be interesting to see if Mercedes have fixed their tyre problems.
 
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